Strength training and heart (the scientific dispute) ...

[Heliotropen]

Hi men!

I don't want to advertise for any products here - but Kennth Jay have written a book (the cardio code) based on his experiences and research with strength trainings effect on the heart...
I have been reading the last few days... and it confused the hell out of me to be honest!

He basically claims that strength training destroys the heart basically if it's not supplemented with enough cardio ...

Now I know we have all heard this before, and most of us with a little knowlege in strength training usually dismiss it as nonsense...

I myself used bigger part of my youth in serious gyms (etc, Flemming 'guffi' Rasmussen = former world strongest mans gym, AK-Jyden George Olsens old gym and so on) ...
I have spoken with numerous great elite coach over the years (there is no one I respect as much as Rip though) ...

And I know that the observation and consensus have always been: "but ppl that lift heavy weights ... (drugfree <= key obviously), does not have more heart problems than visa versus" ...
I have read all versions of SS and practical programming several times (so I know the version laid out there) ...

Also obviously I have read the paper on conditioning here, by Rip & Johnny P...
And allot of other texts around it ...


STILL when KJ speak I tend to at least listen to the guy (I'm no at all saying I always agree with him, I have argued with him for years and years) - but still I have the greatest respect for the guy .. .
AND he is not the typcial stupid making these claims... He has earned his PHD in these things under professors I respect tremendously, and have worked professional with these types of atlets for as long as I have known him...

And lets face it, he has the experience ... and have the right to have an opinion (the guy is strong as an OX) ...

ANYWAYS:
What hits me in the book, is that he mention the walls of his heart has thickened due to all of his years squatting and deadlifting basically, and that this makes it harder for his heart to stretch the left ventricle ...
This made me somehow concerned (because I know he would not say this without being able to back up the claim = which basically the book is about, based on his PHD and so on) ...


Summa Summarum: I won't say his book makes me change all my former conclusions on this topic ....
In fact I have to be honest and say I have quite some doubt in the Cardio Code (not as a training tool) but in many of it's claims ...
But due to my huge respect for Kenneth, I have a hard time just dismissing it ...

SO (since I have been out of the iron-game for more than a few years myself) I'm very interested in you guys view (especially Rippetoes) ...

Is Kenneth's conclusion's something, that we should consider?
Or has he just become too biased?

Stay strong!
- Helio

[CJ Gotcher]

I've seen his argument posted, and he makes a poor case.

Left ventricular hypertrophy is indeed a marker of poor heart health and is associated with health risks, but correlation does not equal causation. The ventricle grows in response to increased afterload (the pressure the heart must overcome to get the blood out) increases. Ventricular hypertrophy happens in strength trainees but also in those with hypertension (because chronically increased blood pressure means the heart is pressing against a greater afterload). Can you imagine why one (the hypertrophy itself) might be conflated with the other (health consequences as the result of hypertension)? Other people (who aren't trying to sell a book on how awesome and special cardio is), investigated the question as well. From Brooks and Fahey's classic text "Exercise Physiology:"

"The changes due to weight training are probably not harmful, however. No long-term effects on the heart have been noted, even in athletes who have lifted weights for more than 20 years. In fact, most elite weight-trained athletes have better-developed cardiovascular systems that the average population."

Before he can make a solid case, Dr. Jay would need to demonstrate that strength trainees (especially novices) do not achieve heart rates significant enough to cause positive adaptations (some enterprising forumgoers have worn heart rate monitors and would argue against that one), especially when compared to the ridiculously conservative guidelines of the AHA and ACSM. He would also have to demonstrate that weightlifters have higher instances of cardiovascular issues (higher rates of CVD and higher mortality) as the result of "athlete's heart," and I haven't seen any evidence to support that opinion.

This conversation has come up multiple times already. I'm pretty sure Dr. Sullivan has addressed it a few times in the Q&A. There's nothing wrong with cardio. It's great. Do it- especially high intensity intervals. But weightlifting isn't bad for your heart.

[Luke S]

Haven't read the book, but seems the classical case of "this disease thickens the heart, and strength training thickens the heart, so strength training = disease" which is ultimate bullshit. People who strength train have better outcomes than people who don't for whatever situation you can imagine.

So answering your question, is it something we should consider:

No.

(There has been lots of discussion on this topic, Google it with the term "site:startingstrength.com" to filter results from this forum only)

[Frankie]

This is an issue for me. The SS hivemind seems overly dismissive of heart stuff and I'm not necessarily ready to drink all the coolaid. I'm certainly gonna check out Kenneth Jay.
I had a few minor heart scares, and some hypertension. Numerous cardiologists (and a Head Of Caridiology) have told me to stop lifting weights, lose weight, eat less meat and salt - surely they can't all be wrong.
I've certainly become less lean averse and cardio averse at the expense of strength than I once was in an effort to hedge my bets.

[perman]

This is an issue for me. The SS hivemind seems overly dismissive of heart stuff and I'm not necessarily ready to drink all the coolaid. I'm certainly gonna check out Kenneth Jay.
I had a few minor heart scares, and some hypertension. Numerous cardiologists (and a Head Of Caridiology) have told me to stop lifting weights, lose weight, eat less meat and salt - surely they can't all be wrong.
I've certainly become less lean averse and cardio averse at the expense of strength than I once was in an effort to hedge my bets.

I agree. Usually when you see some story about some athletically impressive older person, it seems they are usually more into cardio than strength training. Lifting does not seem to help much in extending life span really, just my impression.

[Bergstedt]

I can't speak for any of the science, but I was diagnosed with HCM a little over 10 years ago and have surprised all my doctors since starting powerlifting, despite being medicated with only around 10 % of previous doses during these last 3-4 years. Heavy powerlifting hasn't, at least for me and in this specific case, increased the thickening or even slowed down the reduction in size of the heart.

[I_iz_a_fatass]

Another anecdotal case: Just came back from my cardiologist yesterday for an annual check-in from the almost three years ago myxoma removal. Outlined my workouts, handed over my last year's nutritional data, and he says to keep doing what I'm doing. He put off the echo for another year

Quite honestly, being stronger adds more life to my days; if it shortens the days in my life, I'm okay with that trade.

[Elephant]

...Numerous cardiologists (and a Head Of Caridiology) have told me to stop lifting weights, lose weight, eat less meat and salt - surely they can't all be wrong....

It often seems that if you present with a hangnail the majority of doctors would recommend that you stop lifting weights, lose weight, eat less meat and salt.

That doesn't mean the advice is wrong in every case, just that it's such a reflex among doctors that it should be received with a fair amount of questioning skepticism.

...Quite honestly, being stronger adds more life to my days; if it shortens the days in my life, I'm okay with that trade.

Dr Sullivan has said that weight lifting won't help with mortality (it won't extend lifespan) but it will reduce morbidity (it will add life to your days).

[Satch12879]

It often seems that if you present with a hangnail the majority of doctors would recommend that you stop lifting weights, lose weight, eat less meat and salt.

That doesn't mean the advice is wrong in every case, just that it's such a reflex among doctors that it should be received with a fair amount of questioning skepticism.

Indeed. For some strange reason, people equate "doctor" with "right all or most of the time." Doctors can be and often are ignorant, short-sighted, and wrong. Just like other hard scientists and engineers. Don't get me started on engineers.

Dr. Sullivan has said that weight lifting won't help with mortality (it won't extend lifespan) but it will reduce morbidity (it will add life to your days).

Indeed, also. Quality of life is of utmost importance. Who cares if you life to be 90 if you can't move because you ran marathons for your whole life?

[Christopher Anderson]

This is an issue for me. The SS hivemind seems overly dismissive of heart stuff and I'm not necessarily ready to drink all the coolaid. I'm certainly gonna check out Kenneth Jay.
I had a few minor heart scares, and some hypertension. Numerous cardiologists (and a Head Of Caridiology) have told me to stop lifting weights, lose weight, eat less meat and salt - surely they can't all be wrong.
I've certainly become less lean averse and cardio averse at the expense of strength than I once was in an effort to hedge my bets.

If you've had a few heart scares and hypertension then you have other underlying issues that of course strength training alone isn't going to cure. Changing your diet it of course a very useful tool and adding cardio in to your routine couldn't hurt. But usually I think Rip and the coaches talk about a generalization when they talk about strength training and dieting so far as GOMAD and eating a lot of calories. Changing your rep range from doing sets of 5 to sets of 3 may be beneficial as well, but these are all things you have to tinker with to find the right fit for yourself. I'm not one of those guys who hears something from the doctors mouth and think its a lie, I take it with a grain of salt. Obviously barring any real major heart issue I wouldn't quit weight training altogether.