Muscle fiber ratios and training

[Goatamon]

This is more of a theoretical question than anything else. I also don't know if it's just a dumb question. I've lost all sense of this a while ago.


I started thinking about this when I read about Hatfields muscle fiber ratio test. In case someone doesn't know it, the basic gist is that you work up to a 1RM in a lift, wait 15 minutes, drop the weight to 80% of the 1RM and do as many reps as possible. From here, different people seem to have different analysis of what the results mean, but it's safe to say that anything under 7 reps puts you safely in the fast twitch dominant end, even by the most conservative estimates. By some analysis 5 reps would make you extremely fast twitch dominant, but I'm not sure I buy that. Seriously, who the hell can do 10 reps at 80%? I tried this, and I could barely squeeze out 5. The sixth rep just stapled me, even though this was 80% of what I'm honestly not convinced was my absolute bone on bone 1RM.


If we take the practical considerations of training dumb novices out of the picture, do you think this sort of thing should effect how one trains? Let's say a lifter is extremely fast twitch dominant, and they can only use about 70% to do 5x5, whereas an extremely slow twitch dominant guy could do 5x5 at 85%. Wouldn't it make more sense for Fast Twitch Guy (FTG) to use more weight and do a bunch of triples or doubles? Or would it still make more sense for him to just do fives but at a lower weight?


Again, I'm not really asking for programming advice. This just started interesting me because I tried the test, and at least if we take it as being reasonably accurate, I would actually have a pretty good muscular makeup for this strength thing. This would actually be sort of in line with one of the coaches at the gym I go to telling me that I seem to be pretty damn good at exploding, but I lose steam real fast. Also, I've noticed that usually for me if a rep doesn't go up reasonably fast, it usually doesn't go up at all, no matter how hard I strain. If that is the case, I feel slightly bad about all the stupid fucking around I've been doing in the gym.

Well, at least I just joined the local powerlifting team. Having a powerlifting coach train me in person is going to kick ass.


Thank you!

[Mac Ward]

Interesting. First thought, since you have removed Novice folks from the training, I think something other than 5's is necessary at some point.

Does this depend on the muscle type fiber ratio? I don't know, and I don't think we really know without a CT scan of the muscle for a cross sectional area measurement and a biopsy of the muslce for fiber type counting, we are guessing. I mean REALLY guessing.

Second thought: The test doesn't really tell us anything other than how many reps a dude can do after a 1 RM at 80% of that 1RM. So what? Neural efficiency is a factor as well, fatigue, time of rest, focus, etc. The vertical jump would be a better test. If a guy is more neurally efficient, maybe he has less Type I/Type II ratio, but better capable. Who knows?

I'm not aware of any training methodolgy that is specific to a particular type of individual based on muscle type ratio, and frankly, I would hesitate to listen to a coach that told me he was going to train me based on his interpretation of mine based on an isolated test.

What if it was simply a bad day, and you're wrong?

I happen to think that after the novice stage, when talking about a late intermediate lifter, moving toward advanced, that he will have to train harder in the region he hopes to perform the best in. If he wants singles, he will have to train singles for a period of time to express at that rep range. Same for 5's. 5, 4, and 3 reps each have a purpose for a lifter this far along in his training, and all will need to be used.

As for your explosion and completion of reps, I would hazard one of two things...form break down that caused you to lose a good bar path and fail...or the weight was too heavy. Both are resolved through training.

[Adam Skillin]

Seriously, who the hell can do 10 reps at 80%?

I can. Srs. I also power clean less than I press (~30% of my deadlift max).

Follow up question: I find that when 5's stall, I get something like 3,2 on the next weight, then not even a single set of 3 the following week. Something like:

These are squats. Weight x reps. Intermediate lifter (compete in 148's)

365 x 5 (grindy)
370 x 3, 370 x 2 (fail on third)
375 x 2 (fail on third), 375 x singles

Just an example, but pretty close to how it goes for me. Should I be switching to 3's earlier? Or am I the least explosive man in the world, and therefore condemned to a Sisyphean life watching my 5's roll back down the hill?

[Goatamon]

Second thought: The test doesn't really tell us anything other than how many reps a dude can do after a 1 RM at 80% of that 1RM. So what? Neural efficiency is a factor as well, fatigue, time of rest, focus, etc. The vertical jump would be a better test. If a guy is more neurally efficient, maybe he has less Type I/Type II ratio, but better capable. Who knows?

This is about what I was expecting. It's certainly not a perfect test as you said, but I do think it is sort of nifty. It was interesting because I had always wondered why some people could bang out rep after rep pretty high up on the percentages, and I could pull a single or double out of my ass, but failed miserably at "high" rep work.

As for your explosion and completion of reps, I would hazard one of two things...form break down that caused you to lose a good bar path and fail...or the weight was too heavy. Both are resolved through training.

Yeah, I suppose those things are also a big possibility. Form breakdown due to fatigue makes sense to me, but it's just odd that it seems to happen so suddenly.

Do you know any nifty little ways to test a standing vertical without having one of those fancy pole-things? I guess I could just get some stickers and jump at a wall though...

[Mac Ward]

Do you know any nifty little ways to test a standing vertical without having one of those fancy pole-things? I guess I could just get some stickers and jump at a wall though...

Chalk on your fingers, reach up, make a mark without jumping (make sure it's as high as you get. Chalk on finger, jump up make new mark, measure. Not nearly as accurate. Again, what's the point, and so what?

Do you have a 200lb press, 300lb bench, 400lb squat, 500lb pull? What's your BW, age, height? Injuries?

These numbers are attainable for a healthy guy eating for recovery without a bunch of fancy shit.

BUT...if you ahve found someone that is going to motivate you, you think has the answer, and you are better for it, maybe that is priceless.

[Goatamon]

Chalk on your fingers, reach up, make a mark without jumping (make sure it's as high as you get. Chalk on finger, jump up make new mark, measure. Not nearly as accurate. Again, what's the point, and so what?

Do you have a 200lb press, 300lb bench, 400lb squat, 500lb pull? What's your BW, age, height? Injuries?

These numbers are attainable for a healthy guy eating for recovery without a bunch of fancy shit.

BUT...if you ahve found someone that is going to motivate you, you think has the answer, and you are better for it, maybe that is priceless.

Oh no, I'm not suggesting I need fancy shit in my training. I've chatted with the local coach, and my programming is probably going to be pretty classic, simple stuff. I figure having a coach there with me in person is going to make quite a difference.

I will give the vertical jump thing a try for shits and giggles.

[JamesW]

Interesting topic. I have some of the same issues as Goatmon. I have a big gap between 5rm and 1rm. My reps go up fast or not at all as if I have a top gear that completely dies out after about a 1/2 second. I am on the explosive end of the spectrum athletically, but not freak-level. I am usually among the highest jumpers on the volleyball court but every now and then a guy will show up and out jump me by a foot.

Two training implications I think I have observed:
1) Heavy singles do a lot for me but also quickly lead to a CNS burnout feeling. Failed max attempts on the squat really set me back from a CNS fatigue standpoint. It seems logical to me that this would be the case for people who can hit another gear for a 1rm attempt.
2) If I am basing programing on a tested 1rm, I need to use a slightly lower percentage than the program specifies (e.g. 5x5 at 75% goes to 5x5 at 72%).

I've wondered if I should program with 4's instead of 5's but haven't tried it.

[Mac Ward]

When one's Central Nervous Systems burns out, does one's heart stop beating? Or am I just really tired from a heavy rep and therefore unable to do more reps?

[JamesW]

I thought CNS burnout/fatigue was a synonym for a type of overtraining. Maybe I'm wrong? What I'm referring to is symptoms like drop in performance, irritability, and restless sleep showing up after excessive (for me) use of heavy singles and max attempts, especially if there was one or more failed squat attempts. I agree that being really tired after a heavy rep is the primary reason one would be unable to do more reps.

[Kundahli]

When one's Central Nervous Systems burns out, does one's heart stop beating? Or am I just really tired from a heavy rep and therefore unable to do more reps?

Although heart beat is controlled locally by pacemaker potentials, last time I burned out my CNS my heart rate dropped to like 20bpm for a full 10 days....brah.

As far as this topic is concerned, Ive seen some pretty fast lifters and some pretty slow lifters. It could be related to fiber type or maybe not. In my own training the cue "Grind" seems to be much more effective than "Speed". Maybe that means I should stick to endurance (+10s) 1RM max attempts.