You must eat big, or you're a pussy!!!

[nisora33]

Okay, now that I've gotten the obligatory macho chest-thumping out of the way...

I'm putting this in the “Recovery” subforum because dietary habits determine, in part, the quality and extent of one's recovery (Stef, feel free to move this post if you disagree).

On to the "meat" of the post (hehe):

There is an ongoing "tension" between those who'd prefer not to eat big, fearing the negative health consequences and dreaded fat gain, and those who are "all for it," arguing that massive overfeeding over the short term has little impact on long-term health, while the boost to strength alone is worth any accompanying fat gain. Neither camp apparently understands the opposite’s view and every time the issue is brought up, it leads to inevitable shit-throwing (don’t get me wrong, I enjoy flinging shit as much as the next lifter).

I sympathize with the fellas who dig eating big, and don’t mind the fat gain, who crave the performance enhancement that goes along with it, etc. Because I took myself from 165 to 220 using GOMAD and other food (much of it “dirty”), consuming around 5,000-5,500 calories a day, understanding that eating of this nature wasn’t “forever.” So I don’t exactly feel partial to those of you out there who won’t just buckle down and commit to wild overfeeding, even though I can sort of understand where you’re coming from.

What’s the point of all this? In particular, I want to address the point of view that overeating and massive consumption of “dirty” foods containing high levels of saturated and trans fats plus carbs is unhealthy. Now, I’ve never argued that one should eat this way for all of one’s life, for the record, but I feel very, very strongly that short-term eating of this variety will not negatively impact your health.

Three months after starting GOMAD and “overeating,” I went by my doctor’s office for a routine check-up. He remarked on how much weight I’d gained, asked me why it had happened, and I explained to him my desire to get stronger and how I was going about accomplishing this. The gallon of whole milk raised a red flag for him, and he speculated that my blood test might come back showing elevated blood cholesterol levels. He wasn’t entirely dismissive of what I was doing, I should add, so long as I wasn’t doing this for the rest of my life. Long story short, my blood cholesterol appeared to be at normal, healthy levels, according to the tests.

This made me think about that movie Supersize Me, where the filmmaker basically did to his liver with fast food what drinkers do with alcohol by consuming McDonald’s food three times a day. In food debates, I’ve had folks bring up the documentary to illustrate just how bad junk food can be for you. And I agree with them. However, what few people remember about the film is its ending, just around the time where he went back for his final physical and blood work before ending his thirty day fast food experiment. Previous blood tests had revealed that his liver enzymes were extremely elevated, but this time, his liver panel showed that the enzymes were starting to return to normal.

Why is that important? I bring this up to illustrate how extremely adaptable and resilient the human body is, at least over the short term. The folks who experience severe negative health consequences from eating this way have usually been doing this to themselves day in and day out for many years. They’re bodies have coped and coped and coped some more, until they can no longer cope. If you’re a skinny fucking bastard, this is not you, and you’re concerns over your health, at least over the short term, are largely unfounded.

My thoughts on my personal situation are this: had I stepped into my doctor’s office a few weeks to a month following the start of GOMAD and fast food dieting, my blood tests may very well have shown elevated cholesterol levels—perhaps my liver panel, had one been taken, might have depticted elevated enzymes. But at the 2 ½ to three month point, stuff had returned to normal.

My two cents, fuckers.

-Stacey

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

I just got a physical, and have been putting it off for years because my last physical was so bad. I had triglycerides over 700 and cholesterol over 350. I was eating out 3 meals a day, living in a hotel, and not exercising for a solid year. Prior to this I was running 4-6 miles a day, and doing martial arts 6 hours a week. I was in great shape.

Now for last week's physical. I have been eating extra calories for 3 months not worrying about where it came from. My cholesterol was slightly elevated at 215. Triglycerides were 100. My liver looked excellent along with the rest of the blood panel.

So I completely agree with you. I think you can eat like shit for months as long as you are exercising, and the net effect will not be bad.

Today's lunch: 1/2 pound of pastrami, sour kraut, thousand island dressing, and 2 slices of provolone microwaved for 2 minutes.

[tnumrych]

Today's lunch: 1/2 pound of pastrami, sour kraut, thousand island dressing, and 2 slices of provolone microwaved for 2 minutes.

Dude, that sounds glorious.

Stacey, as always, good point. I fully concur, whatever that matters.

[nisora33]

Stacey, as always, good point. I fully concur, whatever that matters.

Of course you do, you're the Polish me.

-s.

[JLascek]

It is important to note that the stooge in "Supersize Me" was not training at all.

[PMDL]

A little story about me.

I started lifting at 18, in my last semester of high school. Nothing serious, just the usual curl-and-bench shit with some high squats thrown in occasionally. I weighed about 125-130 at this point.

I didn't buckle down and get serious until that summer, when I'd had enough of being that size. I pretty quickly got up to maybe 150-155, which I figure is about where my body wanted to be since I was a chronic under-eater through my teens (and that probably had some long-term effects of its own).

I fluctuated for a few years but didn't really get above 165-170 no matter how much I thought I was eating. Most of this time I was mucking around with Westside-style routines, which I really had no business doing. Also keep in mind I liked to drink a whole lot back then.

I remember being 22, about to turn 23, and just being sick of having not made any real progress for several years. Having finished up a semester at school and having sworn off alcohol for some reason or another, I had a lot of free time on my hands so I bought some weight-gainer powder (NLarge2 I think it was, some of that shit you got in the big-ass tubs) and started pounding 2 shakes per day (1000cals each, give or take).

Along with that I had a 1 to 1.5lb tray of ground beef + cheese + bread, and then a few other meals. All told it added up to over 5000 cals I was slamming consistently. This went on for a couple of months.

I was using some variant of the HST program at that time, lifting 3x/week and doing only 1-2 hard-ish sets of 10 reps for the full body.

I noticed that the scale was actually going up. Like, 3 lbs a week going up. I broke 180 and remember thinking "wow!". Then I broke 190 and was happy as could be. I got within striking distance of 200 but never quite sealed the deal.

Which brings me to the point.

I put on a ton of muscle during that process. I broke my no-alcohol rule and went out after a few months. My friend's sister saw me and asked me if I'd gone on steroids. I got a few other comments like that.

But in the scheme of things I also got pretty fat. And the more I tried to pound calories and push through that barrier, the fatter I got. I didnt' care mind you because I wanted the size. At that point I needed it, to prove I could do it. I guess this was a version of the GOMAD or whatever lame-ass acronym you people use.

In any case, everybody has a pretty hard limit for how much muscle you can add, drug-free, before partitioning goes to hell. Which means there's an asymptote for how useful fat-fucking yourself can be. Roughly 200-210 lbs of body mass is mine.

It doesn't matter how hard you train, how much intensity and attitude and screaming you apply to the process. There's an asymptote for body mass there, and if you try to push past it by aggressively force-feeding, you're going to get diminishing returns. If it's worth it to you to add 10 lbs of fat for every pound of muscle, have at it.

It isn't to me. I can get to 215-220 if I get sloppy, but there's little point since the strength increases are marginal and my quality of life decreases to a degree that's not acceptable to me. Getting over 220 takes extraordinary measures, including drugs, and the same limitations apply.

If you skinny kids don't know where your limit is, then you've got no business complaining about your abs. If I ever bother to truly shred up BBer style, I'll have a fairly impressive physique underneath the fat, due to the muscle built by not worrying about my abs. You don't know where your asymptote is until you go find it.

These days I don't benefit much from going hog-wild with the calories. It's not that I'm concerned with getting fat; it's because I know fat-fucking myself isn't productive. It turns into fat, and while I might get a little stronger and recover better, the negatives outweigh that for me. It's not fun getting winded when you go for a walk in exchange for an extra 10 lbs on a lift.

Coming at it from the other side of the hump, you do have to do things differently. I have to pay much more attention to my diet than I did before, because it's very easy to over-eat now. Of course, the other side of that is that by training harder and simply by virtue of being bigger, I can get away with sloppier eating from time to time, as long as I have some rules in place to keep it in check.

In other words, it's not a life-long change in your diet. You do it for a few months, or at most a few years, until you hit your point of diminishing returns. Then you re-evaluate and go from there. There's no point sitting here whining about your abs when you're not even squatting 350 or pulling 400 as a male of average height.

[nisora33]

In any case, everybody has a pretty hard limit for how much muscle you can add, drug-free, before partitioning goes to hell. Which means there's an asymptote for how useful fat-fucking yourself can be. Roughly 200-210 lbs of body mass is mine...

I can get to 215-220 if I get sloppy,

Yeah, about 210 is about all I can hang on my frame before I start getting sloppy. At 220-223, I was fucking miserable and not much stronger. But you're right, had I not take that journey to begin with, to get bigger, I wouldn't know this about myself.

-S.

[blowdpanis]

Just out of curiosity, Stacy, what were the before/after's for your lifts from 165 - 220?

[stronger]

cool info!

Time for a gallon and a pound of bacon for me

[BruteForce]

A little story about me.

I started lifting at 18, in my last semester of high school. Nothing serious, just the usual curl-and-bench shit with some high squats thrown in occasionally. I weighed about 125-130 at this point.

I didn't buckle down and get serious until that summer, when I'd had enough of being that size. I pretty quickly got up to maybe 150-155, which I figure is about where my body wanted to be since I was a chronic under-eater through my teens (and that probably had some long-term effects of its own).

I fluctuated for a few years but didn't really get above 165-170 no matter how much I thought I was eating. Most of this time I was mucking around with Westside-style routines, which I really had no business doing. Also keep in mind I liked to drink a whole lot back then.

I remember being 22, about to turn 23, and just being sick of having not made any real progress for several years. Having finished up a semester at school and having sworn off alcohol for some reason or another, I had a lot of free time on my hands so I bought some weight-gainer powder (NLarge2 I think it was, some of that shit you got in the big-ass tubs) and started pounding 2 shakes per day (1000cals each, give or take).

Along with that I had a 1 to 1.5lb tray of ground beef + cheese + bread, and then a few other meals. All told it added up to over 5000 cals I was slamming consistently. This went on for a couple of months.

I was using some variant of the HST program at that time, lifting 3x/week and doing only 1-2 hard-ish sets of 10 reps for the full body.

I noticed that the scale was actually going up. Like, 3 lbs a week going up. I broke 180 and remember thinking "wow!". Then I broke 190 and was happy as could be. I got within striking distance of 200 but never quite sealed the deal.

Which brings me to the point.

I put on a ton of muscle during that process. I broke my no-alcohol rule and went out after a few months. My friend's sister saw me and asked me if I'd gone on steroids. I got a few other comments like that.

But in the scheme of things I also got pretty fat. And the more I tried to pound calories and push through that barrier, the fatter I got. I didnt' care mind you because I wanted the size. At that point I needed it, to prove I could do it. I guess this was a version of the GOMAD or whatever lame-ass acronym you people use.

In any case, everybody has a pretty hard limit for how much muscle you can add, drug-free, before partitioning goes to hell. Which means there's an asymptote for how useful fat-fucking yourself can be. Roughly 200-210 lbs of body mass is mine.

It doesn't matter how hard you train, how much intensity and attitude and screaming you apply to the process. There's an asymptote for body mass there, and if you try to push past it by aggressively force-feeding, you're going to get diminishing returns. If it's worth it to you to add 10 lbs of fat for every pound of muscle, have at it.

It isn't to me. I can get to 215-220 if I get sloppy, but there's little point since the strength increases are marginal and my quality of life decreases to a degree that's not acceptable to me. Getting over 220 takes extraordinary measures, including drugs, and the same limitations apply.

If you skinny kids don't know where your limit is, then you've got no business complaining about your abs. If I ever bother to truly shred up BBer style, I'll have a fairly impressive physique underneath the fat, due to the muscle built by not worrying about my abs. You don't know where your asymptote is until you go find it.

These days I don't benefit much from going hog-wild with the calories. It's not that I'm concerned with getting fat; it's because I know fat-fucking myself isn't productive. It turns into fat, and while I might get a little stronger and recover better, the negatives outweigh that for me. It's not fun getting winded when you go for a walk in exchange for an extra 10 lbs on a lift.

Coming at it from the other side of the hump, you do have to do things differently. I have to pay much more attention to my diet than I did before, because it's very easy to over-eat now. Of course, the other side of that is that by training harder and simply by virtue of being bigger, I can get away with sloppier eating from time to time, as long as I have some rules in place to keep it in check.

In other words, it's not a life-long change in your diet. You do it for a few months, or at most a few years, until you hit your point of diminishing returns. Then you re-evaluate and go from there. There's no point sitting here whining about your abs when you're not even squatting 350 or pulling 400 as a male of average height.

Back again. Just a question. Why do you think you get stuck there? What are the bodily systems stopping you from gaining quality mass past that point (drug free) Not looking for a "study" posting contest. Just curious.