Now What?

[crookedfinger]

Jordan,
Appreciate the time and consideration. I generally try to figure this stuff out on my own. I read a lot, but post virtually never. After searching the posts (here and on other sites), I find that I am kind of in a unique spot. I have been training for about 1 year, 9 months. During that time, I have dropped 79 pounds. I have done this wisely and slowly through diet, proper nutrition and weight training (I hate cardio). I am not skinny, or skinny fat, nor am I fat. I am muscled, but need refinement. Here are my current stats:
Male, 38 years old
Current Lifts/Program:
RPT 3 Day Split
Monday
Deads
350x5
315x6
280x8

Wednesday
Bench
200x5
185x6
170x8
Inverted Rows using Body Weight 3 Sets of 15
Face Pulls (working on shoulder repair due to SLAP Tear from my youth)

Friday
Back Squats:
275x5
245x6
225x9
Weighted Chins
BW+100 x 5
BW+70x7
BW+55x9
BWx15

I also walk a lot on my job 2-4 miles over the course of a day depending on the day.

Current weight 178.5
Waist at Belly Button: 33 inches
BF% estimate 13-15% carried mostly on my lower front abs (While I look slim, clothed, shirt off I look muscled, with a bit of a flabby lower gut). I can pinch about an inch to inch and a half and I know some of this is loose skin.

Calories/Macros:
Off Days:
2000 calories
180-200 Protein
50-120 Carbs
Balance in Fat

Work Out Days:
2500-2600 calories
180-220 Protein
120-300 Carbs
Balance Fat
(I focus primarily on hitting my calorie and protein targets for the day, lower carbs on off days, higher on training days)

I also have no problem eating big and can consume 1500-2000 calories in a single meal, as such, I usually fast about 14-16 hours and then eat 2-3 larger meals in the afternoon/evening. Training is usually late at night in a “fed state.” But I do sometimes train fasted in the AM, and notice no difference in performance.

Here is my question. All of my fat seems to be located on my front lower abs/back. I have a lot of vascularity on my arms and groin, some on my legs and ribs/sides. I don’t care about having a 6 pack, but do want a flat gut and am tired of pinching a very squishy couple of inches of belly fat. That said, I would like to put on about 10-15 pounds of muscle slowly, but want that gut gone. Goals for my lifts at this point would be:
Back Squat: 300x5
Deads: 405x5
Bench: 225x5
Weighted Chins: BW+100x8

I don’t know how to proceed, do I continue attempting to shed this last bit of fat and then slow bulk? Or do I attempt a slow recomp? No matter what approach is best, what should my calories look like?

My current calorie split has my weight stable for the last 3 weeks, with lifts going up slowly.

I have done really well cutting, have a pretty good understanding of nutrition, but at this point, it is about refinement and slowly upping my lifts and I fear I have gotten lost in the minutia. I am ok making slow progress as I am a recreational lifter and do so strictly for the mental and physical challenges it brings me.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Mark

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I'd stop fasting, change programming to slightly higher volume and frequency that revolves around 5's, and I'd get more control of what the macronutrients are doing instead of having a range as wide as what you're presenting.

120-300g of carbs on lifting days is such a huge range that it's really impossible for me to say anything intelligent about it other than "Hey, that's a big range. Can you be more specific?" Therefore it'd be hard for me to actually suggest changing anything besides the following: up your protein a bit, pick carb, fat, and fiber goals and hit them regularly. Adjust from there.

[crookedfinger]

thank you, sir, for the response.
When I run my numbers on fitday daily averages for the past 2 months are:
Calories:2228
Protein: 176
Carbs: 178
fats: 96

I threw the range in there because this past week, I have been a little less than consistent on balancing carbs and fat.

Based on your advise, Here is the plan I have formulated:

Work out days:
Protein 220
Carbs: 220
Fat:80

Off days:
Protein: 200
Carbs: 100
Fat: 90

I seem to do better from an adherence standpoint on higher fat, lower carb as it is easier for me to manage/monitor intake.

For now, am thinking I shouldl keep the routine the same and monitor weight, lift stats and belly measurements for 4 weeks. This will give me a baseline to make tweaks. I am fearful that if I change the routine and diet up at once, there are too many variables to account for.

Please correct me if I am wrong on either account. I might just be a pussy and if that is the case, I swift kick in the balls will help.

thanks!

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Macros look okay, but I'd add 25g of protein and carbs to both days and set fiber at 35g/day. You don't have to change the program just yet, it's just suboptimal.

[crookedfinger]

Macros look okay, but I'd add 25g of protein and carbs to both days and set fiber at 35g/day. .

Ok, do I reduce fat based on the increase in protein and carbs? Or just hit those macros with the increase in calories?

"...it's just suboptimal."
Well fuck me...I am not about suboptimal.... So tell me what is optimal, you said some sort of x5s.

Is the same 3 day split with 3x5's better? Or what is most optimal?

Sorry for all the questions. I searched and searched the forum, but couldn't find any specific scenarios quite like mine; semi-lean, semi-trained....most seem to be too fat or too skinny or at a completely different height/weight. I think I am right in the middle,.....

Thanks again, sir!

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Ok, do I reduce fat based on the increase in protein and carbs? Or just hit those macros with the increase in calories?

Just hit the macros with the increase in calories.

Well fuck me...I am not about suboptimal.... So tell me what is optimal, you said some sort of x5s.

Have you, umm, read the book that heavily influences this forum? You keep saying semi-lean, semi-trained, etc. but this does not give me any insight into your programming needs. You never said how tall you are, but at 178lbs and 13-15% BF you're in no danger of being too muscular or too lean to require super tailored programming. Your lifting numbers suggest you might be an intermediate lifter, although if you have never run a linear progression where the weight increases multiple times per week you might be able to get some mileage out of a template like that. On the other hand, you'll probably need to shift (fairly soon) to a weekly ordered program where the weight increases week to week. The biggest problem in my eyes is that your frequency and volume over the course of a week is fairly low and so adaptation to the imposed stress will be low, which may limit progression. Read SS:BBT and Practical programming. Do the novice progression for a few weeks, then shift to an intermediate program that supports your goals. More complex stuff comes later.

[crookedfinger]

Jordan,
Apologies. I thought I had included my height. I am 5' 11"

Yes, I have read the book (SS, but not Practical Programming). It was close to 2 years ago and had used a lot of it and resources on this site (and youtube) to get my form correct. But no, I have not done any of the programming and went a different approach via training. Particularly the RPT. I had a lot of weight to lose and have been on a diet and restricted calories for about 2 years (minus refeeds, some weeks at maintenance, etc.)

I will pull the book out and give it another go. In all fairness, I hadn't anticipated that this thread would turn into a training discussion as I was mostly concerned about macros/diet and felt my current training approach was fairly solid, but limited by my diet. However, since it has gone that route, I will do more due diligence on my own.
Thank you again for the thoughts and guidance.

[Nick Klemetson]

crookedfinger seems to be following a pretty strict Leangains protocol, all the way down to the 16 hour fast, the RPT, and the macros using an on/off day cycle.

The thing with RPT is that I don't think Martin advocates doing that until you are already super lean (<10%). Until that point, he actually lifts up the Starting Strength method, which is what Jordan is describing.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with changing both programming and diet simultaneously. It sounds like you've hit a bit of a plateau, and for me, the fastest way to get over that hump is to make some pretty dramatic changes to keep myself interested. I used to only want to change a little bit at a time, but it was never as effective since my body was still comfortable with what was happening.

I remember struggling with the same issues as you a couple months ago. I had hit a plateau and couldn't figure out how to get over the hump. The only way I did so was by doing a dramatic change in both programming and diet. I'm now on the verge of wanting/having to do another one.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Jordan,
I will pull the book out and give it another go. In all fairness, I hadn't anticipated that this thread would turn into a training discussion as I was mostly concerned about macros/diet and felt my current training approach was fairly solid, but limited by my diet. However, since it has gone that route, I will do more due diligence on my own.
Thank you again for the thoughts and guidance.

Sounds good. Lots of training programs will work for a little bit, but the good ones allow for progress long term with minimal tweaking instead of wholesale changing.

crookedfinger seems to be following a pretty strict Leangains protocol, all the way down to the 16 hour fast, the RPT, and the macros using an on/off day cycle.

The thing with RPT is that I don't think Martin advocates doing that until you are already super lean (<10%). Until that point, he actually lifts up the Starting Strength method, which is what Jordan is describing.

Ah. This explains it. I also disagree with Martin about the effectiveness of this program for most people in addition to the calorie cycling that frequently and, of course, the fasting. There are lots of ways to skin the cat, but that doesn't make them optimal.

[crookedfinger]

Yep, my routine is heavily influenced by Martin Berkhan and Andy Morgan. Martin advocates RPT for training, specifically, when in a caloric deficit. That said, I am not a die hard "leangainer." For me, balance and long term adherence is most important. I don't like eating in the morning, I have a big appetite and can easily consume a shit ton of food (which makes dieting difficult), and enjoy working out later at night due to my lifestyle, family life, and the fact that I truly hate mornings so getting up and to work on time is a big enough challenge. I also, don't want to live in the gym and prefer a 3 Day Split. These are the things I try to consider when implementing my diet and routine.

As you said it, I am hitting a plateau and need to shake things up, I have always been a firm believe (naive or not) that 70-80% of it is diet, the rest can be hit by a solid routine with the basic compound lifts. Again, I am not a bodybuilder, power lifter, competitor, or stage person in any way. I am just a 38 year old married dad trying to get into shape and strong.

I have linked to a pic so we can all have a visual of where I am at. Don't worry, I am not shirtless. 5' 11", 178.5 lbs., 33" at the navel, 42.5" at the chest.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1139404...eat=directlink

Thanks for the pointers guys. I am off to start re-reading SS. Monday night is Deads and it sounds like I may be taking a different tact.