20s

[Thomas Jones]

Interested in others' experiences messing about with 20 rep squats. I'm 45 y.o., 6'6.5", about 250# and have been training pretty consistently for 18 months or so after a shoulder surgery before that.

About two months ago I decided to mix things up and start doing sets of 20, beginning at 135# and adding 2.5# per work out. I do these twice a week and the third day I do heavy sets (for me, anyway) of 5s. I was looking for the mental challenge, curious about where I would end up on a linear progression of 20s, and thought it might give me a little conditioning boost.

I did 175# early this morning, finally reaching a weight where I'm not certain I can complete the set -- after all, with light weights, one always feels like one can do just one more rep. At rep 17 this morning, I felt like I was going to vomit, and at rep 19 I got very dizzy. 4 hours later and I'm still feeling pretty wiped out. My goal was to get to 185# x 20, but we'll just have to see. I'll try 177.5# Sunday.

My pulls, which I do once a week and which had stalled a while ago, have progressed nicely during this two months. I've improved my set of 5 DLs by 10# and my power clean 1RM by 10# to 185# (yes, I'm pathetically weak).

My pressing movements seem to have suffered or only maintained themselves. Perhaps because my presses follow my squats and I'm pretty thrashed from them?

Anyhow, it's been a fun experience -- in a sick sort of way -- and I am interested in what others may have gone through. Also, any mocking of my program is more than welcome!

[Oldster]

Interested in others' experiences messing about with 20 rep squats. I'm 45 y.o., 6'6", about 250# and have been training pretty consistently for 18 months or so after a shoulder surgery before that.

About two months ago I decided to mix things up and start doing sets of 20, beginning at 135# and adding 2.5# per work out. I do these twice a week and the third day I do heavy sets (for me, anyway) of 5s. I was looking for the mental challenge, curious about where I would end up on a linear progression, and thought it might give me a little conditioning boost.

I did 175# early this morning, finally reaching a weight where I'm not certain I can complete the set -- after all, with light weights, one always feels like one can do just one more rep. At rep 17 this morning, I felt like I was going to vomit, and at rep 19 I got very dizzy. 4 hours later and I'm still feeling pretty wiped out. My goal was to get to 185# x 20, but we'll just have to see. I'll try 177.5# Sunday.

My pulls, which I do once a week and which had stalled a while ago, have progressed nicely during this two months. I've improved my set of 5 DL by 10# and my power clean 1RM by 10# to 185# (yes, I'm pathetically weak).

My pressing movements seem to have suffered or only maintained themselves. Perhaps because my presses follow my squats and I'm pretty thrashed from them?

Anyhow, it's been a fun experience -- in a sick sort of way -- and was interested in what others may have gone through. Also, any mocking of my program is more than welcome!

Anyone who mocks someone elses program needs a swift kick in the butt.

Good luck on the 20's, I've done them in the past and plan to keep them in the past. I spent my time under the bar unable to remember reps 16-20 and don't plan to do it ever again!

They have their place in everyones training at some point in their lives and I'm glad to see you doing them.

[RussB]

Anyone who mocks someone elses program needs a swift kick in the butt.

Good luck on the 20's, I've done them in the past and plan to keep them in the past. I spent my time under the bar unable to remember reps 16-20 and don't plan to do it ever again!

They have their place in everyones training at some point in their lives and I'm glad to see you doing them.

Oldster, in your mind is it appropriate to do them while one is still a novice or early intermediate, or best to wait until more advanced and a lot of weight can be moved? Or maybe the benefit is mostly mental so just doing them is the most important thing. I've done one set in my life, with 100 lb. less than my 5RM, and it was quite difficult. I did them as a sort of punishment for not getting my prescribed reps that day. Then I had the brilliant realization that if my recovery wasn't good enough to hit my set of 5 for the day, maybe hammering out a set of 20 wasn't the best idea. So I gave up on the idea, but one day I'll revisit 20s again, more intelligently.

[Corrie]

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=33796

There was some good discussion in this topic a few months back. Might be able to get a few good bits of info in there.

[Thomas Jones]

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=33796

There was some good discussion in this topic a few months back. Might be able to get a few good bits of info in there.

From that thread, it looks like you gave it a go. Did you stick to it? Where did you end up?

[Chebass88]

I did them for about two months in 2011. They are one of the best things a weight-training individual can do. They train mental focus, and rep execution (you want to make sure each rep is the same, to get through them). They are very difficult - mostly the mental strength required to face them & get them done. It can build to a serious dread of the gym & almost a fear. Done well, they take about three minutes. Do a quick set of pullovers - and you're done.

Your presses do not have to follow squats - Rippetoe recommends this, but Bill Starr and Brooks Kubik have written about doing them first. You can almost always get your squats after you press, but not always the other way around. I do my presses (bench, overhead) and arm work prior to squats. It works, and will work well if followed consistently.

I know you asked it of Oldster - I hope he doesn't mind if I chime in too. They are best for someone who knows how to squat well enough to do 20 consecutive decent reps. A novice is still building the habit of going to the gym thrice weekly, learning basic techniques, and can still make increases with 5x3 or 5x5 programs. I did them after about a year of training, starting with 185x20 (1RM of 355lb). I would increase the weight when I could get 25 total reps. I got up to 245x20.

An excellent article regarding the 20 rep breathing squat: http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2008/06...-400-x-20.html

[RussB]

I did them for about two months in 2011. They are one of the best things a weight-training individual can do. They train mental focus, and rep execution (you want to make sure each rep is the same, to get through them). They are very difficult - mostly the mental strength required to face them & get them done. It can build to a serious dread of the gym & almost a fear. Done well, they take about three minutes. Do a quick set of pullovers - and you're done.

Your presses do not have to follow squats - Rippetoe recommends this, but Bill Starr and Brooks Kubik have written about doing them first. You can almost always get your squats after you press, but not always the other way around. I do my presses (bench, overhead) and arm work prior to squats. It works, and will work well if followed consistently.

I know you asked it of Oldster - I hope he doesn't mind if I chime in too. They are best for someone who knows how to squat well enough to do 20 consecutive decent reps. A novice is still building the habit of going to the gym thrice weekly, learning basic techniques, and can still make increases with 5x3 or 5x5 programs. I did them after about a year of training, starting with 185x20 (1RM of 355lb). I would increase the weight when I could get 25 total reps. I got up to 245x20.

An excellent article regarding the 20 rep breathing squat: http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2008/06...-400-x-20.html

Thanks. Yeah I'd always assumed that once I can move some serious weight for my 5RM (just hit 345x4 after a few weeks on TM), then it might be time to think about 20s. The one time I did them my 5RM was about 325, so I ended up doing it with 225. At about rep 12 or 14 I had to just decide I was going to finish, and I did manage to. It was definitely painful (and I got increasingly more out of breath for a few minutes after I was done), but seemed like it could be quite productive. I just didn't want to mess with my recovery and try 20s in the context of pushing up my 5RM. They seemed like contradictory goals.

Anybody ever do the program and en up 20-repping their previous 5RM or something crazy like that?

[Corrie]

From that thread, it looks like you gave it a go. Did you stick to it? Where did you end up?

I was thinking about it back then during a layoff from lifting but when I got back to it I felt so weak and stiff that 20 rep squats were way out of the question lol. So unfortunately I have no experience.

[Thomas Jones]

I always warm up to a heavy single before doing my set of 20. My 5RM is 235, so I'll work up to 235# or 245#. Doing so doesn't really fatigue me and my theory is that when I pick up the bar for my 20, it feels light -- at least for the first 5-7 reps!

[NKT]

I did the classic 20 rep squat program: one 20-rep set of breathing squats, followed by a light set of pullovers, followed by a few sets of dips, chins, and barbell curls. Three sessions per week. Worked from 225x20 to 280x20 over about 5 weeks. At least a gallon of milk each day on top of four solid meals.

It was the hardest program I've ever done, but the workouts were just a little over half an hour and the growth I saw was unbelievable. I gained about 15-20lb, and, from what I saw in the mirror, not much of that gain was bodyfat.