More Frequent Squatting, High Bar Stylee

[Gary Gibson]

This is my back off week. I've been focusing on the deadlift and not squatting at all as I allowed my quad tendonitis to clear up. The theme of back off week is to do something different. I've been doing push ups and trying out different kinds of squatting from the low bar I've repeatedly championed.

I started out doing some Hindu squats (bodyweight, going up on toes, arms swing forward at the bottom) and my knees felt so good that I decided to try some front squats and high bar back squats. I worked up to a training max on both (only 315 beltless on the high bar right now). The next day my knees felt so good, better than I can ever remember them feeling.

Took a day off and gave things a lot of thought. Decided that I'd like to train my squats like WL do, and to add in the classic lifts eventually and train those along with my squats daily or near to it. I figured I'd take the advice of Fred Hatfield on this and reserve training the low bar squat only in preparation for meets but to use the high bar to build strength for most of my cycles.

I know better than to start off squatting daily so I'm just doing it thrice weekly right now on non-consecutive days. Just worked up to a training max of 325 and then did fast triples with 245 afterward. My legs are really digging this and my knees feel amazing, much to my surprise. It's been months (maybe even years) since I've been able to bend so fluidly or climb stairs without pain.

Big thing with high bar squatting is that even when I lose the back angle a bit and my hips rise faster than the bar at the sticking point, it's not by very much. It can't be, else I'll lose the lift forward.

I still love the low bar squat, but I'm going to be treating it as a tool in the box as opposed to my mainstay and as my "competition lift", sort of like I do with sumo pulls.

[Paul Sousa]

My road there has been different, but I just made the switch as well. Low bar beats the crap out of me and I have a tough time recovering from it (I also have never felt comfortable or natural with the low bar style). I play soccer twice a week and trying to low bar squat and deadlift was killing my performance as I wasn't recovered by game time. I tried high bar last night, and just like you my knees, hips, etc. feel great today. It also felt more natural and depth was much easier to achieve. I'm hoping it works out, but after two years I began to hate the squat with a passion and figure this is better than not squatting at all.

[Joel Chapman]

So are you saying that the high-bar doesn't beat you guys up as bad as the low-bar, beyond the simple reason that you are using less of a load? It is also related to the mechanics of the two lifts?

[Paul Sousa]

For my one workout using high bar it definitely didn't beat me up as much. High bar was much harder on my hips. The narrower stance allowed by the high bar position just feels much more natural for me. This does come with a sacrifice though, there was definitely less hamstring recruitment, and my adductors felt nothing. I did feel like my glutes were a bit more involved though, and my abs feel more sore today than normally after a squat session.

I am by no means an expert at strength training, and my problems with low bar may very well have been due to my inability to perform it properly, but after trying my best to learn it on my own for about 2 years I've reached the point where I'm willing to try a change.

Edit - Also, I did deload a bit but only 20 pounds. The same weight with low bar would still give me hip pain the next day.

[Dastardly]

Hindu squats are one of the most risky things you can do for your knees.

You basically divebomb right onto your knees while on tip toes. There is no tension or stabilisers controlling the movement. You just slam down on your knees super hard over and over. Just the kind of thing that might end up in a ligament tear if you go too hard too soon, or will at least give you patella tendonitis.

[Paul Sousa]

Hey Gary, not sure if you've seen this before but I thought it was a good write up by Tommy Kono explaining why high bar squats transfer better to Oly lifts than low bar. Nothing ground breaking, but coming from TK it carries some weight.

http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2008/08...ommy-kono.html

[jameson]

Glad to hear this, "I figured I'd take the advice of Fred Hatfield on this and reserve training the low bar squat only in preparation for meets but to use the high bar to build strength for most of my cycles."

Speaking of Dezso's Tight Tan Slacks: Olympic Lifting for Powerlifters

[Gary Gibson]

Improper squatting technique not only wastes the lifter’s time but also gives him a false sense or power in the legs which do not really serve him well for the squat style clean & jerk. What then, constitutes good technique in squatting which will aid in the Olympic lifts?
...

This is the style usually employed by powerlifters to get record poundage. Many powerlifters not employ this style but also ride the bar NOT ON THE SHOULDERS but lower down the back; that is, below the rear deltoids. They often use an extremely wide stance which brings into play muscle groups of the inner thighs. The MORE MUSCLE GROUPS EMPLOYED AT ONE TIME THE GREATER THE WEIGHT THAT CAN BE HANDLED. But, it doesn’t mean that the cleaning ability will improve.

I disagreed sharply with Mr. Kono on this a few months ago (as if Mr. Kono need worry about my opinion), but my experience has proven that I was wrong, wrong, wrong.

"False sense of power in the legs": indeed! The low bar squat has great value, but it's much more of a posterior chain builder. My deadlift kept going up thanks completely to my improvements with the low bar squat (I know this because I barely deadlifted at all, yet my deadlift numbers kept increasing when I would try it), but my clean and snatch numbers stayed low.

Yes, the clean and snatch require skill, but you'd think I'd be able to muscle up more weight in the power versions after adding over 100 lbs to my squat. Alas, I did not! These movements require more leg (quad) power. They just do. That second pull, the acceleration after the deadlift, is quad-dependent, as is vertical jumping.

Low bar gave me bigger hip extensors--bigger buttocks, hamstrings at the origins and adductors--but not so much the quad at the insertions down by the knee, which is exactly where the development appears on people who can clean and jerk the most impressive amounts. Louie Simmons when advocating box squats to develop hip-dominant squatting remarked that such squatting may actually result in your quad size diminishing. This is not a good thing if you want to clean and jerk and snatch as much as possible.

I confess to being a little worried about losing some of the bigness around my hips by not low bar squatting as often. I'm hoping that high bar will prove to blend the muscle actions well enough that quad size and strength doesn't come at the cost of PC size and strength. Glenn Pendlay's experience is that the carryover will be better from high bar to low bar and box squatting than the other way around.

Anyway, it's not like I'm abandoning low bar. It will find its way into my life when I need to squat the most weight for competitive purposes. But to build my leg power for use in lots of other things, I'll be using high bar.

Note: I still think low bar is great for beginners and intermediates because it addresses hamstring strength that beginners are likely to lack and because it uses more weight and recruits other muscles of the posterior chain (like the adductors) more. I made much quicker and more profound progress with low bar than I ever did dicking around with high bar. But now it's time for high bar.

[blowdpanis]

To be a devil's advocate here, consider whether you actually tried similar programming in terms of the Russian stuff + huge calorie intake when you were high bar squatting. Meaning that a lot probably changed besides just lowering the bar down your back, no? Knowing what you know now may allow you to progress your high bar squats in a way analagous to what you did with your low bar squats.

And right now I'm sticking to low bar squats after reviewing a lot of film of my squats, mainly because it's a little more symmetric. But otherwise, I do honestly think high bar squats are both easier to teach and arguably more natural, as per prior discussions.

[Gary Gibson]

To be a devil's advocate here, consider whether you actually tried similar programming in terms of the Russian stuff + huge calorie intake when you were high bar squatting. Meaning that a lot probably changed besides just lowering the bar down your back, no? Knowing what you know now may allow you to progress your high bar squats in a way analagous to what you did with your low bar squats.

And right now I'm sticking to low bar squats after reviewing a lot of film of my squats, mainly because it's a little more symmetric. But otherwise, I do honestly think high bar squats are both easier to teach and arguably more natural, as per prior discussions.

Thanks a lot, Mike. Now I'm considering RSR and Smolov Base Phase for high squats!

Get thee behind me, Satan('s advocate)!