Fixing a squat

[Bleve]

I'm sorry I don't have a video of this yet Rip, but I'm working with a masters age track cyclist doing your squats, and we're running into a problem. He's a 44 y/o guy with great leg speed but poor strength, so squats & deadlifts will help him a lot. We're using a modified PPST program to build him up and mixing it with track sprint work on the bike.

He has two problems I'm not sure how to fix.

I hope my description is clear :

Firstly, no matter how much we demand that he reach back with his hips in the squat, his hips drift forward at the bottom, his knees come way forward and he turns it into an almost front-squat squat, all quads. He's watched your video on squats with me, we've gone over SS ad nauseum, but it just doesn't matter what we do he drifts forward, after an initial good hip movement to initiate the descent once he gets to about 80 degrees of knee bend his hips and knees come forward. We've done the "get down and jack the knees apart with the elbows" thing, I've loaded him up with weight to get him deeper but it's just not happening at the bottom. His flexibility is junk, but I don't think it's a flexibility thing, I think it's confidence and posterior strength.

He spoke to his osteopath today and they discussed squats and this is his report :

I asked him to look at my squat position and why he thought I can't easily get into the correct position and why I can't get back and why I get that pain/soreness in the front which confused you and Merv on Wed. night.

Basically my gluteals are very weak and I am using my quads to support me. If I try to push back, it recruits more of the gluteals but because they are weak I want to come forward to prevent losing balance and toppling backwards. It's the gluteal media and gluteal minor which are at fault. This is just his opinion of course, he is no weights guru.

He suggested we come up with additional exercises/drills/lifts - whatever it takes to strengthen the glutes. During this time he really emphasised keeping the weight down and making sure technique is spot on. He mentioned something about during squats the main muscle groups need to activate and fire in order - A,B,C. That may not be happening and you may know more about what he was talking about than me.

So the osteo at least isn't saying "squats hurt your knees"! I'm not a huge fan of osteos, but he is and this one at least doesn't seem like a complete twit.

Now if that's the case (and I'm not sure that it is, but I'm at a loss) would you suggest that deadlifts might be a useful thing to do to get his posterior chain to work? Maybe even SLDLs to get the quads right out of it at first to build up his backside? He deadlifts reasonably well, at least in terms of technique, it's acceptable and we're improving it, but I have to fix his squat somehow.

The second problem is that we have a lot of trouble keeping his feet under his knees, his feet drift right out beyond 30 degrees as he goes down and his knees cave in, so there's no power out of the hole (what little hole there is because he doesn't go down and back far enough to really get into it!). Again, even doing unweighted squats onto a ball or bench doesn't seem to help this, I'm not sure if it's some weird hip flexibility thing. He explains that it's his anterior hip muscles that tighten up, but I can't see why, they're not really loaded or stretched much?

I will get a video of him doing this this weekend I hope, so we'll be able to show it to you, but in the mean time, your suggestions are much appreciated.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Problem 1: Both you and the osteopath, and lots of other people, are confused about how to fix a problem within a major multi-joint exercise. Let's assume for a second that your cyclist's glutes are weak -- and I'm not entirely sure that most of this problem is not merely the fault of flexibility, since cyclists are such notoriously inflexible fuckers, and even though the vast majority of humans are flexible enough to squat below parallel correctly, your cyclist might not be -- and then let's figure out a way to get those weak glutes strong enough to help us squat. What "glute" exercise for the medius and minimus are we going to select that will produce strength usable in the squat? Some weird cable deal? A new form of hip extension on the GHD? How will this work, since he also wants the lifter to micromanage the "firing order" of the now-stronger constituent components of the kinetic chain?

The reason we do the squat is because it is a normal human movement that requires the use of all the skeletal components of the body and therefore all the muscles that move them. If we are careful to make our movement pattern reflect the correct use of the skeletal components moving with the physical system provided by the loaded barbell sitting on the shoulders -- correct technique -- then all the muscular components work the way they have to to move the skeleton "correctly" within the constraints of that physical system. Correct meaning the most efficient way to move the bar through space while using the most muscle mass possible and therefore making the most possible stuff strong. In other words, the neuromuscular system solves the problems of skeletal position, which muscles to use, how much to use them relative to each other, eccentric/concentric/isometric, their "firing order", all this shit that is too complicated to actually keep track of with your brain. If your movement is correct, then the use of the muscles that produced that movement is correct too. It's like an economy -- there are too many parts to micromanage, and every time it's tried you fuck things up. You just set up a framework of laws to enforce contracts and the damn thing runs just fine.

Excuse the tangent. The answer is that you make him squat correctly and the "gluteals" will get strong in exactly the way they need to, because they got strong in the context of the movement pattern they are designed to perform.

Now, Problem 2 is really just more of Problem 1: the guy can't produce a position that actually lets him use his posterior chain because all its components are so tight that he can't -- or he won't -- get into a position to use them correctly in the movement. Sure, you can use RDLs to show him how his hamstrings and glutes are supposed to work, but that doesn't show him the femoral external rotation necessary for the squat, and if you can't get a correct squat out of the guy, what makes you think you can coach him through an RDL or an SLDL?

So, the problem is either severe flexibility inadequacy, best fixed by a vicious massage therapist and myofascial release, or your ability to coach the guy into a correct position. You cannot fix the strength of a section of the kinetic chain of a multi-joint movement by isolating that component, making it stronger, and sticking it back into the movement. The whole movement has to get strong, and when it does all the components of the movement are strong in the way they normally function together. AND then if they need to be used in ways that are different from the big movement, they're still strong; this is how the low-bar squat improves the front squat. Leg extension will improve nothing but the leg extension, the pec-deck won't make your bench press stronger, and if you figure out a way to make the osteopath happy and isolate some of the glutes, that won't improve the situation either.

There is a way to coach the guy into position, I'll bet. You can figure it out.

[Smiler Grogan]

That's some good shit right there. Thanks, Rip.

[AngryFrosty]

I live in a rural area and hence I am plagued by cyclists riding by my house all weekend (sometimes in large herds). Here's my idea:

Pre-stage a loaded bar on a platform in the front yard close to the road. Post my kid at the end of the driveway as a lookout. When she yells "Bike!", I run out to the front yard and proceed to deadlift (yelling obsceneties all the while). I can keep a scoreboard nearby to keep track of how many people fall off their bikes, ride into the ditch accross the road, wet their spandex, etc.

My plan should reduce the number of cyclists using my road by a reasonable percentage.

Any thoughts Mr.Rip? Anyone?

[BryanM]

There is a way to coach the guy into position, I'll bet. You can figure it out.

...is it yelling, Rip?

[Bleve]

Thankyou, Rip. He's coming over tonight for another session, with his daughter, who squats brilliantly, very strong girl, it's no co-incidence that she's a state champion cycling track sprinter. I think, if I understand you right, that we get him to squat as deep as he can with proper form and gradually work on his depth as his flexibility improves?

I've seen some suggestions that he have something to hold on to in front so he can build the confidence to go further back without feeling like he'll fall on his arse as another way to learn the bottom position, worth a try? I think it's a confidence and balance thing more than anything else. I know his flexibility is really crap but that should improve if we get the form right and gradually get him deeper.

He gets pretty frustrated about it and I don't want him to give up, thus your help is very much appreciated.

[UnBalanced]

"It's like an economy -- there are too many parts to micromanage, and every time it's tried you fuck things up. You just set up a framework of laws to enforce contracts and the damn thing runs just fine"

Coach: This is EXACTLY the sort of thinking and analysis that led me (in an earlier unrelated post) to posit that the longer you weight train, the more politically right of center you see the world. The reason is that politically right thinking (classic liberal, libertarian, conservative) jibes with the natural world and the normal tendencies of the humans in it while politically left thinking (commies, pinkos, socialists, progressives, douchebags) strive in directions contrary to these natural truths. Lifting heavy shit clarifies this for people, if they think about lifting heavy shit.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Thankyou, Rip. He's coming over tonight for another session, with his daughter, who squats brilliantly, very strong girl, it's no co-incidence that she's a state champion cycling track sprinter. I think, if I understand you right, that we get him to squat as deep as he can with proper form and gradually work on his depth as his flexibility improves?

I've seen some suggestions that he have something to hold on to in front so he can build the confidence to go further back without feeling like he'll fall on his arse as another way to learn the bottom position, worth a try? I think it's a confidence and balance thing more than anything else. I know his flexibility is really crap but that should improve if we get the form right and gradually get him deeper.

Just this second we fixed a new girl's bottom position who couldn't balance at the bottom. I stood behind her so she could lean on my leg while she adjusted her balance. If the trainee has never been in a full squat, and I suspect yours has not, it makes sense that it might take a few minutes of playing with it while supported to figure out how to do it unsupported. But if you let them use their hands, the position will not be the same as the usable squat.

[Steve Hill]

I live in a rural area and hence I am plagued by cyclists riding by my house all weekend (sometimes in large herds). Here's my idea:

Pre-stage a loaded bar on a platform in the front yard close to the road. Post my kid at the end of the driveway as a lookout. When she yells "Bike!", I run out to the front yard and proceed to deadlift (yelling obsceneties all the while). I can keep a scoreboard nearby to keep track of how many people fall off their bikes, ride into the ditch accross the road, wet their spandex, etc.

My plan should reduce the number of cyclists using my road by a reasonable percentage.

Any thoughts Mr.Rip? Anyone?

Hey, I got a better idea. Come to the gym with me, and then to the track for some bike riding, and we'll see who's spandex is wet and when, eh?

Thankyou, Rip. He's coming over tonight for another session, with his daughter, who squats brilliantly, very strong girl, it's no co-incidence that she's a state champion cycling track sprinter. I think, if I understand you right, that we get him to squat as deep as he can with proper form and gradually work on his depth as his flexibility improves?

I've seen some suggestions that he have something to hold on to in front so he can build the confidence to go further back without feeling like he'll fall on his arse as another way to learn the bottom position, worth a try? I think it's a confidence and balance thing more than anything else. I know his flexibility is really crap but that should improve if we get the form right and gradually get him deeper.

He gets pretty frustrated about it and I don't want him to give up, thus your help is very much appreciated.

So I'm trying to wrap my mind around this one little thing: He doesn't like to feel like he's going to fall on his arse (going zero MPH), but he's racing a track bike?

Interesting.

Did you ever think to stand behind him and tell him "I won't let you fall over backwards"?

[Bleve]

Just this second we fixed a new girl's bottom position who couldn't balance at the bottom. I stood behind her so she could lean on my leg while she adjusted her balance. If the trainee has never been in a full squat, and I suspect yours has not, it makes sense that it might take a few minutes of playing with it while supported to figure out how to do it unsupported. But if you let them use their hands, the position will not be the same as the usable squat.

Understood. Thank you for the suggestion.