Can't do low bar anymore

[zaphr]

Hi. So I posted a thread a week or so ago on another topic and everything was going pretty great. I had come back to low bars from switching to high-bar this summer because my bicep/shoulders couldn't take it anymore.

This was the thread about my shoulder/bicep problems: http://startingstrength.com/resource...t=32395&page=1

I thought the issue was resolved because my pain disappeared after a couple of weeks without LBBS and doing overhead press exclusively. Coming back to low bar squats a couple of weeks ago they felt pretty good, at first I had some pain in the same areas as before but after learning some tricks (pulling down on the bar and squeezing elbows together) the pain was completely gone. I was so glad because coming back to low bars from high-bar squats really made me realize that I like LBBS a lot more.

Unfortunately the pain came back this Wednesday, I was lifting in a new gym so I was hoping it was merely a form issue from squatting in a different kind of squat rack/bar. A fools hope. Coming back to my ordinary gym on Friday the pain was slightly better but it was still that bone grinding achy feeling I prayed I'd seen the last of. If Wednesday felt bad today was some out-of-this-world shit. I had to stop after set 2 because my arm almost went limp and the pain increased after leaving the squat rack to peak at some nasty shit. I wouldn't know how to grade it (1-10) but it felt pretty bad, like I was fraying away at the tendons. The pain from inside the peak of the bicep and the shoulder joint.

I went to the doctor the last time I was injured and he told me (might be slightly wrong, was a couple of months ago) that I had a inflammation of the subacromial bursa and shoulder impingement.

So I guess I have it again..

I must be doing something terribly wrong or my body isn't fit to do low bar back squats. I really hope its the former because, and this might sound sad lol, I really love strength training the SS way and especially doing LB's. I don't know how to put it but even though I think my high bar squats were decent its something about Low bars that make me love going to the gym. They feel so simple and stable, HB was never like that for me. It would be sad if I was forced to quit doing them. But maybe I'm too stubborn and causing myself debilitating injury because I can't let go of the low bar squats.

I've tried putting the bar higher but that puts it on top of the spine of the scapula (i think) so I'm pretty sure I have it in the right spot. I've tried elbows up, the 2 things I talked about above, really narrow grip (1 hand-width inside the rings which for me is less than 1 hand-width from my shoulders) medium narrow, wide grip (outside the rings) lower palms against the bar, thumbs around the bar.

Everything I can think of, it feels like I've tried. Every-freaking-time I get that pain. Its like there is a "time-bomb" inside my shoulders set to go off every time I go over 90kg.

I don't have any videos of my pain-full squats but there are 3 clips in my last thread:
http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=35522

The only "clue" I have is that on my last set I tried pulling down on the bar with my lats to really make sure I was not carrying a single pound of that weight with my arms, and it actually relieved of some of the pain. But at the same time I got this "stinging" sensation like I was obstructing some of the blood flow (same feeling you can get in your feet if you are hanging above ground and then after a while you drop down). It sure beat the pain but it still can't be good? And I still had some severe pain after I was done.

If you know anything that could help my situation please tell me, I would greatly appreciate it. I'm desperate.

Please Starting Strength community, help me. You're my only hope!

PS: sorry for the essay lol.

[Brodie Butland]

I'd like to help you out--I know how much that stuff sucks. A few questions:

(1) Could you get a picture from directly behind you, eye level, of your grip on the bar? This will require someone to snap the photo for you. But I want to see up close how you're holding everything.

(2) After you squat and get a pain sensation, are you able to do bench pressing or overhead pressing? How does it feel after those exercises?

(3) Do you get this painful sensation any other time during the day? If so, what triggers it?

[zaphr]

Thanks for responding so quickly.

1: I'll get a photo for you as soon as I can but its night time here now so that will take some time

2: It depends on the pain level, but last Friday I could, although I was definitely weaker. Today I could not and last Wednesday I could not.

The times I've been able to do them (I've almost always done OHP afterwards when I had pain so I don't know about bench press) It usually feels better afterwards but I'm not sure if thats because of the exercise or just the time that has passed since squatting.

3: Yes, but its hard to pin-point exactly where it is located (from memory) as it is noway near as strong. But its mostly front deltoid and inside the shoulder. Front and side. Its not really reproducible but sometimes I get it if I try to lift something away/to the side/front of me. Overhead lifting/pressing is the most stable/least painful. This might be useless information but I never really get that deep bicep pain/numbness thing day to day, thats only after squatting.

Movements that trigger pain/or feelings of "unstableness" are moving my arms extended at shoulder level horizontally, especially laterally. Also doing a front-raise movement can cause pain/discomfort. It is usually more of a feeling of a very slight "almost-dislocation", hmm its very hard to explain. But they just don't feel completely stable in some movements.

[Tom Lang]

I have similar issues, too--mainly the golfer's elbow, and sometimes a deep ache in my brachialis region, all on my left arm. Here's what has helped me:

Warm up with a bunch of shoulder discolates with a broom handle, or (if you're stiff like me) a band.

Practice the bar postion/placement on non-squat days--use lighter weight, but heavy enough to feel it, and just hold there for a few sets of 10 seconds or so. As you warm up, you'll be able to move your hands closer together.

Be sure your wrists are straight, thumbs over the bar, per the video.

Work on posture/mobility--I'm slightly kyphotic, which contributes my problems. Foam roller, tennis balls on the trigger points, do a search for these ideas. For me, the range of external rotation on my left (non-dominant) arm is 2 inches or so less than my right, and I have no problems on my right side. You can compare arms by putting your hands/elbows in the front rack position and see how far out and back you can push your hands. There's probably other ways to check this, but this works for me. Improving external rotational mobility will probably help.

I, too, had problems trying to bench or press after heavy squats, to I switched to a modified 4-day split:

Monday: Press, Bench Press, Chins/pull ups
Tues: Squats, DL
Wed: off
Thurs: Press, BP, chins/PU, dips
Friday: Squats, pulling

Sets follow the novice 3x5 across, 1x5 for DL, 3Xfail body weight for chins/dips. This template is conducive to adding a couple of intense conditioning exercises on Tuesdays and Thursdays, too (about 10 min worth of Prowler, tabata spints on elliptical or rower, etc.). And it can be modified into a proper Intermediate program, once you're there. It's in the Book (PP), and is mentioned on these forums. Rip talked about it recently.

You can see that this builds in lots of recovery time--useful for me at 48. How old are you?

[Patrick Stroup]

Then just high bar and get really badass at those.

Its not the end of the world. Plenty of dudes high bar big ass weights.

[Brodie Butland]

Yes, but its hard to pin-point exactly where it is located (from memory) as it is noway near as strong. But its mostly front deltoid and inside the shoulder. Front and side. Its not really reproducible but sometimes I get it if I try to lift something away/to the side/front of me. Overhead lifting/pressing is the most stable/least painful. This might be useless information but I never really get that deep bicep pain/numbness thing day to day, thats only after squatting.

Movements that trigger pain/or feelings of "unstableness" are moving my arms extended at shoulder level horizontally, especially laterally. Also doing a front-raise movement can cause pain/discomfort. It is usually more of a feeling of a very slight "almost-dislocation", hmm its very hard to explain. But they just don't feel completely stable in some movements.

Two more questions--sorry:

(1) In addition to the above, do you ever get radiating pain down your arms, in your elbow, etc.?

(2) Are you perchance on a statin?

[Engineer_Guy]

Then just high bar and get really badass at those.

Its not the end of the world. Plenty of dudes high bar big ass weights.

This. You wouldn't be the first guy to have shoulder problems from low bars.

[zaphr]

Two more questions--sorry:

(1) In addition to the above, do you ever get radiating pain down your arms, in your elbow, etc.?

(2) Are you perchance on a statin?

1: I do get radiating pain down my arm when/after I squat but its usually only down to my bicep, not to the elbow. Also sometimes when I rotate my arms to warm them up (between squat sets) I can get a sort of electrocuting sensation, like a nerve was impinged.

2: Statin as in the cholesterol lowering drug? If so no. I'm not on any medication at all except for taking 500x2mg of naproxen daily since yesterday.

pcknshvl: I'm 23, but I have done shoulder dislocations before and inbetween sets and this monday I did do quite an extensive warmup, even doing pushups and lateral shoulder raises with the thumbs pointing down because I read that is supposed to strengthen your rotator cuff. Maybe I haven't done that sort of stuff enough before but I get the feeling that I'm pinching a nerve or something with my bar placement, can't think of anything else that could cause such acute pain as soon as I go heavy on squats, but I'm no doctor.

About high-bar squats, if I can't resolve this issue of low bars I'll have to switch, but I'd rather not. I felt so weak at HB and especially the torso angle always left me much more sore in the low back. I did switch to ATG soon after I started HB though so that could be why I've gotten a bad impression.

[Patrick Stroup]

High Bar is not nearly as straining on the low back as low bar...

[zaphr]

High Bar is not nearly as straining on the low back as low bar...

I know they are supposed to be, but for me High bar is more straining on the low bar. Maybe its the longer lever arm of the back? I don't know, maybe its something about my form, I have pretty long femurs so I never get that very vertical back angle a lot of olympic weightlifters have.