Question about 5k training (sorry, this is the only board I post to)

[Bronan the Barbarian]

Hopefully somebody knowledgeable who posted in my other running thread can help me out here.

I am trying to improve my 5k time. Got Pfitzinger's Road Racing for Serious Runners (ha!). Good reviews; well regarded in the endurance world. I read some of the background exercise physiology stuff and then flip to the 5k chapter. Here he says 5k is all about VO2 max, with a little lactate threshold creeping in at the end. He also says interval workouts at close to race pace are the best way to increase VO2 max. Intervals are between 600m and 1600m for beginners. I'm tracking so far.

But then he lays out his 5k programs, and they call for 2 LSD runs and only one VO2 max (intervals) workout per week. The LSD runs are to be run about 1.5-2 minutes slower per mile than your goal pace. This is where he loses me.

If VO2 max is the key to the 5k, and fast intervals are the key to improving VO2 max, then why only do that once per week and spend the other workouts dicking around with LSD runs?

More to the point, why does a 5k runner ever need to go out and run 7 miles at much slower than race pace?

I'm sure there are good answers to these questions, I'm just pretty clueless on this stuff.

[Greg C]

You don't need to run LSD much if at all to train for a 5k. Plus it will fuck up your lifting recovery. What does you lifting program look like now?

[Tiburon]

I'm sure there are good answers to these questions,

Let us know when you hear them!!

[casaubon]

I'm a noob lifter, but fairly well versed in endurance. The general idea behind most run training plans is that a large endurance/aerobic base is primary. It takes a fairly long time to develop and it's easy to lose quickly. So even advanced plans focus a good deal on volume. Threshold/vo2max work is easier to move with lower volume, and it requires less recovery from the runner. It's easy to think that LSD is analogous to a high-rep/low weight lifting session, where interval work is more like hitting a 1-rep max, but in terms of how your body responds, not really. I find I bounce back more easily from long slow efforts and have to emphasize recovery more after heavy interval work. I'm focusing on cycling this season, and while a 2.5 hour ride will take it out of me for an afternoon, my legs basically bounce back quickly and with enough food I'm ready to go the next day. I did a 45-minute interval session this morning and I'm likely going to be sore in new places all day. When I string together too many intervals, I'm more susceptible to a crash than if I string together several LSD efforts (all things being equal. pushing myself to ride three centuries in three days in a row would knock me out but good right now).

My experience and understanding is that the volume work as the base of the pyramid, with VO2Max as the cherry on top, is best at least until you have a very solid base, assuming you want this to be sustainable. At a certain point, your aerobic capacity may be so well established you can emphasize interval work more (as in the Run Fast/Run Less plans. They really don't encourage noobs running that plan). CFE of course says "this is for everyone!" but several people I know have tried it for endurance and found that while it may get them across the finish line, they are really only capable of endurance efforts once in a while. If you just want to run a 5k once, set a time, and win a bet or check something off a box, you can probably build an interval-heavy plan that will get you peaking at the right time. If you want to run a lot of 5ks for more than one season, you're probably better off with a higher volume approach.

imo. I'm not claiming SCIENECE for any of that.

[Corrie]

Very nice post casaubon, makes sense to me. Recovery after intense intervals can be brutal especially if you're not conditioned for it.

[Bronan the Barbarian]

You don't need to run LSD much if at all to train for a 5k.

So in your opinion would it be better to do one long run per week and as many VO2max/interval sessions as I can recover from, say three maybe?

Plus it will fuck up your lifting recovery. What does you lifting program look like now?

I am dropping all lower body lifting to focus on this for a while. Just doing weighted and unweighted chins and dips and maybe some pressing. I know, I know...

[f4thpathway]

Back when I was a young platoon sergeant in the Corps Mariners I got the best improvement on guys by doing stadium stairs and lap intervals.

We ran the stairs, which were...4 up and 4 down, then trotted a lap, stairs, trotted a lap, stairs, trotted a lap...until we hit 8 laps.

That was twice a week after lifting. Regular runs were 2-3 per week at 3-6 miles, cadence pace.

Improvements were very nice. I only used it for improving times and once the capacity to make time was hit the individual came. Off cycle. Unless they wanted even faster times. Or regressed.

[Greg C]

So in your opinion would it be better to do one long run per week and as many VO2max/interval sessions as I can recover from, say three maybe?

I am dropping all lower body lifting to focus on this for a while. I know, I know...

1. I'd experiment here. Vary the interval distance and repetitions. I found fartleks (funky word that) worked really well for me when I was doing sprint distance tri stuff.

2. I don't think you "need" to do this. Maybe shift your programming a bit to support the other training. How about something like this (yes, for those that wonder, this is largely based on Dan John's Easy Strength template). It's a 2 week cycle:

Day 1: BS/DL 2x5 at an "easy" weight, 3x400m sprints, rest such that HR <150% resting HR
Day 2: BS/DL 2x5 at an "easy" weight, BP or SP (whichever is next)
Day 3: BS/DL 5/3/2 - set of 5 at whatever you are doing your 2x5s at, increase weight for the triple and double, but no misses allowed, and they should NOT be grinds, Run 1 mile as fast as you can.
Day 4: Rest. Maybe some LSD if you really feel up for it.
Day 5: BS/DL 2x5 at an "easy" weight, BP or SP (whichever is next)
Day 6: BS/DL 2x5 at an "easy" weight, BP or SP (whichever is next); Fartlek or some short sprints, maybe 8x200m
Day 7: Rest Baby
Day 8: BS/DL 2x5 at an "easy" weight, BP or SP (whichever is next); Short sprints again. 5x400m.
Day 9: BS/DL 1x6 at an "easy" weight, BP or SP (whichever is next) - six singles. Weight increase each single. No misses, no grinding.
Day 10: BS/DL 10x1 (tonic), LSD
Day 11: Rest Day
Day 12: BS/DL 2x5 at an "easy" weight, BP or SP (whichever is next); Short sprints again. 5x400m.
Day 13: BS/DL 5/3/2, BP or SP (whichever is next)
Day 14: Rest

Notes:
1. No misses. If the 2x5s feel light, bump the weight. Heavy, drop it. This is volume and auto-regulation. Recovery is built-in here, so don't sweat it much.
2. Feel free to test yourself a bit on the 5-3-2 and 1x6, but still no misses. This is key.
3. You will be "feeling" your way out on the sprints and what volume you need. Try to track your times and make the workouts somewhat repeatable so you can see how you are doing. Some level of pace work on the 400s may have value (ie try to run them all in a certain time, then make it a few seconds faster next time).

I've been doing something similar to this for almost 2 complete quarters now as a 42 y/o post back and hip injury, and my rowing times and lift weight are back into PR territory with no sign of any overtraining or other issues. I've missed some workouts here and there, but it's a marathon, not a sprint. I can see myself doing this type of training long-term as well. YMMV.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I've been dieting for the last quarter too.

[Bronan the Barbarian]

Cinnabon, thanks. So Pfitzinger lists 5 types of training and discusses each in the early chapters:
1) LSD. Long, slow base building.
2) LA training. I.e., tempo runs of 20-40 minutes at lactic acid threshold.
3) VO2 max training. I.e., intervals, but not anaerobic 400m intervals. Rather, longer race pace intervals.
4) Speed work. I.e., Sprints/strideouts to increase turnover.
5) Recovery runs

In races of different distances, these elements are of varying importance. I read the 5k chapter more carefully, and what he says is this: VO2 max is most important. Next most important is how you manage lactic acid. Far behind is anaerobic ability (How fast can you make your legs go?).

Then he throws out training plans for <20 total miles of training per week, 20-40 per week, and more than 40 per week. The basic outline of them is as follows (ignoring the speed work sessions):

<20: 2 LSD runs per weeks, 1 VO2 max session every other week, 1 LA session every other week.

20-40: Same as above, they're all just longer.

>40: Still two LSD runs per week, a little more frequency on the VO2 and LA stuff.

Okay, I fall into the <20 miles per week category. In light of the bold sentences above, I cannot understand why he wants me to spend the bulk of my time running slow as shit and only taking advantage of the powerful effect of VO2 max and LA training once per week. I mean base building sounds great, but what does it even mean really? How much of a "base" of slow running do you need to go balls out for around 20 minutes? What adaptation are the LSD runs causing that (1) you need for a 5k and (2) the LA/tempo runs of 20-40 minutes won't provide?

[ColoWayno]

Greg, what means this 10x1 (tonic)?