Programming pullups or chinups for someone who doesn't have unassisted pullups

[Tamara Reynolds]

I posted this in another thread (that had nothing to do with pullups), and since several people have found it useful, I wanted to post it as a new thread in a relevant location.

This is my response to the question of how to help someone get their first pullup:

First of all, if someone cannot do ten consecutive pushups from their toes, I would not put them on a pullup bar yet. I'm not saying that 10 is a hard and fast rule, but if someone cannot do 10 consecutive pushups, then I don't think they have the shoulder and "core" strength to be able to safely do a pullup. I'm not saying this applies to your wife specifically, but I just want to throw this out there as a qualifier that I use because I like to err on the side of caution as a person with a prior shoulder injury and as a non-fucking-stupid coach.

I would use bands for pullups. You need two bands to start. The first (heavier) band should be the lightest one where she can do 2 sets of 10 pullups without failing a rep. There is a possibility that some people won't be able to do 10 pullups on the heaviest available band, and that's okay. In that case, use the heaviest band and do 2 sets of max reps. The second (lighter) band should be the lightest band where she can only manage to do one or two reps before she fails a rep. Since bands can be expensive if you have to buy them yourself, it would make sense to try to find two lighter bands of different resistance that when used together could serve as the heavier band. Because the goal is to move down in resistance.

Workout A:
2 x 10 pullups
5 negatives

Workout B:
10 x 1 pullups
5 negatives

For workout B, she is going to allow herself enough rest time in between reps so that she can get 10 x 1 reps without failure. If she finds the lightest band that she can do a single pullup and can't get to 10 reps with rest, fine. Do singles for max sets and try to add a set each time.

So, workout A might be Monday, and workout B might be Thursday.

For workout A, as soon as she has a few weeks of doing 2 x 10, she is going to move to 3 x 10 (or 2 x 10 plus 1 x max reps if she can't get 10 on the final set). As soon as she gets to 3 x 10 consistently, she will want to move down to the next lightest band and start the process over at 2 x 10.

For workout B, as soon as she gets to 10 x 1 consistently, she will try to do doubles on as many sets as possible until she gets to 5 x 2. Then she will repeat the process to try to get triples on as many sets as possible. If the band she is using for this workout is not the lightest band available, then she can move down to the next lightest band and repeat the process.

I am also not opposed to lat pulldowns. I was doing lat pulldowns, and I ended up with a dead hang pullup a lot faster than most girls I know.

I had a lot of success greasing the groove to improve my pushups, and I know that some people do this for pullups. You could try alternating A and B on Mon/Wed/Fri instead of just Tues/Thurs after a few weeks. I just know lots of people who have had overuse injuries from pullups, and that happened to me more than once as well. So, I would be careful not to get too crazy with reps.

As soon as she has a SINGLE dead hang pullup, workout B changes to 10 x 1 (or singles for max sets) WITHOUT BANDS.

[Patrick Stroup]

So I kind of want to add something to this and I hope it doesnt piss anyone off. This is what worked for me when i was 270+ lbs.

Obviously not having a ton of extra fat helps so adjust your diet accordingly.

Basically i couldnt get 1 pull up. I have tried bands and got REALLY awesome at doing band pullups... so I decided a different route.

Basically any workout where I was supposed to chins or pullups I subbed in Close Grip (the cable attachment where your hands are facing each other, people use it for low cable rows a lot) Pulldowns. 2 sets of 6-8 reps. Making sure to keep my shoulders and back set in perfect position and no swinging. Bring the handle down to the top of your chest and then fight the weight on the negative. I added 5lbs each time and didnt move up in weight till I got a full perfect two sets of 8

Ok so why you are doing that weekly (I did it on GSLP on days where weighted chins were programmed) You will also be doing some actual chinning. I found it easiest to get my first chin/pullup on the parallel or hammer grips handles. If you dont have them thats fine. But basically I would get to the top position of the chin then fight the negative from anywhere to 8-30 seconds for 3-5 negatives. I did the 5 set of negatives EVERY DAY. So go get one of those cool iron gym door frame dealios.

This got me from NO pull up at all. To my first pullup in about 2.5 weeks. Serious. Everyday do timed negatives. 3 sets of 8 seconds work to 5 sets of 8 seconds then start adding seconds to each set. By the time I was at 5 sets of 20 seconds I got an easy pullup.

With all due respect to T Bone if you tried the band thing and progressed and its not working. Try this.

[Tamara Reynolds]

Oh, I think a LOT of different methods could work, Stroup. And, I do like negatives and think they are a big piece of the puzzle.

ETA: The PROBLEM with bands is that a lot of people don't get off the bands once they have a pullup, especially if they are doing CrossFit WODs and "have to" do a lot of timed pullups in workouts. You have to get the fuck off the bands as soon as possible and knock out unassisted singles.

[Gunnhild Bruno]

If you can't do a hang and controlled negatives, you have to build up the ability to do those somehow, and from what I understand, the assisted pullup station, lat pulldowns, and bands are all ways to achieve the ability to hang and do controlled negatives.

From my experience with the assisted pullup station and lat pulldowns, if you do not move to doing negatives, you will likely never progress to being able to do a single dead hang. Don't have experience with bands, but I would guess that they are similar.

So what both of you guys are saying makes sense.

I personally find that supinated grip are actually easier than hammer grip, though hammer grip feels easier on the elbows.

[Patrick Stroup]

Bands and Assistance machines are nothing more than a band-aid on a shotgun wound. Unless you are a total piece of shit you should be doing negatives for time. Or if you REALLY blow ass time holds and the top then work to time hold with your forehead in front of the bar.

I also think jumping pullups with no negative are fucking dumb. Plus the issue I have with bands is when are you ever going to chin of pull up like that? The resistance of the band puts you either with your feet or knees in a position you will not be doing chins in. Then they are not helping you build the musculature you need to get out the bottom. Like I feel and a lot of others do. Bands get you real awesome at a movement. But its usually nothing like the actual movement. Almost like using PVC pipe for ten years and hoping to snatch a rainbow.

Long story short. This is a movement that people just need to suck it up and do some negatives. Yeah you look gay, yes the cute cardio bunny / jacked alpha male is NOT going to give your oral sex after your wimpy looking set for time. But hey. In 2-4 weeks when your ass has been busting it hard you got a chin and from there its cake to get even more. Then maybe once you crank out a set of 10 with 100 lbs hanging from your vag/sack you will get some action. Or you can go on the internet and discuss the minutia of a fucking bodyweight movement.

TL;DR version. Lose weight / Negatives = First chin. Boom.

[Gunnhild Bruno]

stuff

Do you have much experience training people, especially women?

[stonerider]

Do you have much experience training people, especially women?

if what you're suggesting is that women want some sort of complicated, intricate program with all sorts of extraneous assistance exercises designed to help increase their pull-ups, because in their heads they need to have everything mapped out and pretty and not the same boring negatives day-in and day-out, then i would agree

[Gunnhild Bruno]

if what you're suggesting is that women want some sort of complicated, intricate program with all sorts of extraneous assistance exercises designed to help increase their pull-ups, because in their heads they need to have everything mapped out and pretty and not the same boring negatives day-in and day-out, then i would agree

No, I mean that many people, especially women, can't hang from the top of a pull/chin at all, nor can they produce anything approaching a negative. Like everything else, you can't throw badass attitude around when it doesn't work. I am the first person to tell people to get off the goddamn assistance machines and do negatives... when they can actually do negatives.

But I couldn't expect you to know this since it's clear that you don't actually associate with women outside of the Internet.

[stonerider]

i don't associate with anyone outside of the internet

[Patrick Stroup]

Do you have much experience training people, especially women?

I got my fat self to do a competent set of 10 chin ups.

I also have my wife complete 10 hammer grip chins she is working on pullups now.

Should you listen to me? Absolutely not.

But for the record once I unprogrammed that stupid as fuck "I am special and need special exercises." from my wife's brain (maybe even mine, but I wont admit that) she started hitting her training hard and without fluff. Granted she doesnt lift weights with me. But she can bang out a set of 10 hammer chins cold, and she can competently do 50 REAL pushups without rest. Plus she can definitely do more burpees than I can. Haha.

So take that for what its worth. Contrary to what women want to believe they are NOT special and things SHOULDNT be easy. Especially training. Look at t bone she hits training right in the teeth like a 300 lb gorilla with steel toes on. And she reaps the benefits.

And its not about badass attitude. Its about just fucking doing it. Do you think so little of yourself as a human being that you need to purchase 150 dollars worth of bands so you can perform a fucking chin up negative? LMAO. Kill yourself. It comes down to two things.

You're to fat or you're to lazy to do the negatives.