Force production in O-lifts vs. Speed powerlifts

[Peter_k]

I've been wondering something about the difference between olympic lifting and speed sets a la westside (speed bench, speed deads, speed squats).

From what little I know, speed deads, for example, wouldn't be programmed in terms of progressive overload; the main idea is to increase neural efficiency, so being faster and faster would be more important than adding weight. In PP you say that a trainee should stay with the same weight for a few weeks, then maybe go up a bit. But no way would someone increase every workout on speed lifts.

But with power cleans, you recommend adding weight like any other exercise.

So comparing two sort of similar exercises, speed deads and power cleans, (in that they train power and involve fast pulling off the floor), why are they different in terms of adding weight? Are speed deads a strictly power exercise while cleans are a combination of things, maybe?

[Mark Rippetoe]

An interesting question. Why move the deadlifts up only by varying speed of contraction, while adding small increments to the clean? I believe that Westside uses increases in deadlift weight through a short cycle, but I do not claim to be an expert on Westside. Briefly, deadlifts are done at this stage of training by intermediate level trainees who have exhausted linear progress and have moved to more complicated programming utilizing timed singles. But power cleans that go up in small increments reflect novice programming, so we're not really comparing equivalent concepts here.

I suppose you could increase speed deadlifts in a linear fashion if you wanted to, but bar speed for a clean is not really a controllable variable in the sense that it's always supposed to be as fast as you can make it. So the two are fundamentally different in this respect. It just that Louie's method involved the use of deadlifts for pulling power for advanced powerlifters, and the one in SS uses cleans because it's a novice program. As a sentient adult, you are free to -- and encouraged to -- experiment with different variations so that learning can take place.

[Peter_k]

Thanks for your answer. Makes sense.

Just as a follow-up question, though: if someone is alternating heavy deadlifts with either power cleans or speed work of some kind on a week-to-week basis, should they increase deads at twice the rate they would if they were DLing once a week?

Obviously the point of cleans or speed deadlifts in the first place would be to increase absolute strength. So, if you advanced by 5lbs a week normally, would you go to 10lbs every two weeks, then?

I know the answer seems obvious, but from what I know, you're a proponent of small increases done more frequently. A 10lb or more jump every two weeks sounds like it might be a bit of a shock to the system.

[Mark Rippetoe]

No, because someone doing an alternate workout like this on a week-to-week basis is not following a novice progression, and therefore has exhausted the ability to make rapid progress. Small jumps are always the rule, and more important as you get stronger.

[whatupdun]

In PP, pages 162-3, this routine is introduced:

WEEK1
Day1
-----
Squat
Bench
Chins

Day2
-----
Front Squat
Press
Deads

Day3
-----
Squat
Bench
Pullups

WEEK2
Day1
-----
Squat
Press
Chins

Day2
-----
Squat
Bench
Power Cleans

Day3
-----
Squat
Press
Pullups

As I recall, SS prescribes

Day1
-----
Squat
Bench
Deads

Day2
-----
Squat
Press
Power Cleans

REPEAT

I understand that the first routine I typed from PP is for a stalled out novice, and I'm doing the second one on this page, the one found in SS. I also get why the squats are done only 2x a week at this stage, and why deads are de-emphasized. I'd like you to help me understand why then do we introduce so much pullup/chinup-type pulling at this point. I bet you'll have a good reason, and so I wonder if it's ok to switch either pullups or chins with bent rows at this point? Which would be better to switch out?

If I was only deadlifting once a week at that point, could I swap the second week's Day1&3 pulls with cleans, and then do the pullup/chinup/bent row on Week2/Day2? This seems like it'd be a little more symmetrical, especially since I plan to work 1 on-1 off rather than 3x a week.