Appropriate rep range for chins done correctly

[QuinceTree]

Following recommendations on a thread I read a while back I have been really focusing on getting my upper chest to the bar as a minimum when I chin (ideally hitting just above the nipples) - to make sure I strengthen the upper back muscles beyond the lats.

So far so good: I am doing 3 sets of 8 reps with 15lbs attached and I have found that this has helped strengthen the upper part of the deadlift (where I'd previously been weak).

However, what I am finding is that in an 8 rep set the first three reps are text book, the next 3 I am getting the bar to my upper chest, and the final 2 I am getting the bar to the top of my sternum. My guess is that the lower traps, rhomboids - or whatever else are involved in getting the bar below the chin and hitting the chest - are fatiguing quicker than my lats (I could probably crank out another 2-3 reps to my chin).

My questions are:
1. Has anyone else found this pattern of fatiguing on chins?
2. If my objective in chinning is to strengthen the upper back muscles for deadlift, press and bench press, then does it make sense to drop the rep target and increase the weight - as this may better exercise the lower traps, rhomboids etc which seem to be the muscles which govern the final part of the pull on a chin (and also on a deadlift?)

[Mark Rippetoe]

1. Everyone has noticed this pattern of fatigue doing chins.

2. Heavy weights for 5s bothers my shoulders, but many people have found them to be useful and programmable. Try them.

[QuinceTree]

Thanks Rip.

Will give it a try and report back.

[hippy5alive]

For what its worth, my personal experience went something like this:

3 sets of 5 worked to go from BW to BW+20kg (2.5kg increments)
5 sets of 3 worked to go from BW+20 to about BW+35kg (1kg increments)
doubles and singles to hit BW+40kg

Im not sure how much chins really contributed to my deadlift ability...

[Mark Rippetoe]

Me neither.

[EvanJones]

I think the fatigue you are describing is pretty standard. I would recommend standardizing your reps. Instead of pulling as high as you can each rep (and letting this diminish throughout the set) just pull until you could rest your chin on top of the bar. If you can't rest your chin on the bar then it's a failed rep so you should stop. I noticed that doing so prolonged my progress. You should also be fully rested between sets just like your squats, take about an 8 minute break between sets.

Sets of 8 worked well for me but max sets also worked so I think you should try things until you find something you can keep progressing on.

Some other tips I can give are:
- Squeeze the hell out of the bar for the entire set.
- Your decent should be fast enough not to fatigue but slow enough not to cause a failed rep due to loss of grip.

[Subsistence]

How exactly do lats contribute to the lock out of a deadlift anyway? Is it just keeping the scapula in place?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Lats transfer force from lower back to the humerus. By the time the lockout has occurred, they have finished most of this job.