Squat Bar Asymmetry - recenter the bar?

[blowdpanis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OStCJSdRnyw

I'm rehashing an old subject, but was curious about people's input on a fix.

This is a video showing the degree of my asymmetry in the squat when the bar is even on my shoulders, and I am attempting to keep my upper back tight the whole time. Yes, I'm squatting in Vibram's, and own 2 pairs of oly shoes, but this doesn't change anything. There's a picture at the end too for the last rep highlighting how asymmetric this winds up. I can make slight modifications to improve this, like thinking only of keeping my right elbow up, but this feels unnatural and I sort of have to relax the left side.

The problem is pretty simple - the bar is uneven as a result of my shoulders/spine being uneven, and despite "feeling" even and trying to grip the bar symmetrically on both sides, you can see how the bar itself shifts a little during the set such that the left hand winds up a little more over the bar than the right.

My shoulders/spine are uneven probably because I have a retroverted right hip. Now, if I were completely asymptomatic I probably wouldn't let asymmetry deter me, but I've had intermittent greater trochanter pain syndrome (trochanteric bursitis/sciatic like symptoms) for the better part of a couple of years off and on (left side), and I'd hazard a guess that being an asymmetric mess probably isn't helping.

So, here's the question:

Should I...

1) Recenter the bar such that the bar winds up more even? I.e. one "fix" I've found, that at least improves the asymmetry, is to shift the bar to my left (right side of screen on video) such that I'm closer to the plates on the my right side (left side of the screen). Making this an inch or two asymmetric does level out the bar a bit. I've been doing this recently but decided to film some video to see how a symmetric bar placement would treat me (it's just as asymmetric as ever).

2) Assume that symmetry is best served by the bar being lined up on my back, despite the fact that it's unlevel.

What I'm getting at is which is less damaging - having the bar itself be off center in order to level the bar, or being even under the bar and hoping for the best? While the bar itself might be more even by shifting it over, it occurs to me that, in 3 dimensions, there are other ways to compensate for an asymmetry, including a bit of twisting on the way down.

Note that I've been working on flexibility/mobility in my hips, shoulders, etc for a long time now, literally daily for probably a year and a half. This hasn't fixed anything, probably due to the afore mentioned structural asymmetry.

[Tom Campitelli]

I can make slight modifications to improve this, like thinking only of keeping my right elbow up, but this feels unnatural and I sort of have to relax the left side.

I think this is going to be a better solution than trying to place the bar off center on your back. Try thinking about driving your front of you left shoulder downward slighlty as you descend. That might counteract the slight twist that you are doing.

How much do you weigh at present?

[Calvo]

Would shimming a shoe help with the hip? Just a thought.

[blowdpanis]

Would shimming a shoe help with the hip? Just a thought.

The hips themselves are actually a lot more even than they used to be, I think due to lots and lots of hip stretching (piriformis stretch etc). Retroversion isn't really as simple as a difference in leg length, it's more the angle at which the muscles are attached due to the angle at which the femur projects out on the side (it's like having a pre-external rotation of ~15 degrees on that side). I've done some experiments with changing the leg length with a shim or standing on something, but these never really panned out. If you look at the symmetry of my legs/hips they're probably about as even as they're going to get imho.

The problem is upstream at the bar at this point, which is interesting, because my asymmetry was originally in the hips, i.e. my hips themselves looked very uneven but the bar looked straight-ish. Now the hips are a lot more even and the bar is crooked. I don't think I'll ever "win" this but I'm trying to minimize the harm and maximize the benefit of squatting, obviously.

[blowdpanis]

I think this is going to be a better solution than trying to place the bar off center on your back. Try thinking about driving your front of you left shoulder downward slighlty as you descend. That might counteract the slight twist that you are doing.

How much do you weigh at present?

Hey Tom. I've tried fixes like this, literally rotating on the way down and such, but as I think you will appreciate, this just gets incredibly awkward at some point. It's kind of hard to hold: sit back, chest up, knees out, left shoulder down, right elbow up simultaneously in your head without it feeling like an absolute mess. Which is kind of the problem, obviously.

Bodyweight is low at the moment (150's somewhere), but I've been 20 lbs heavier than this and it made no difference to the asymmetry. Right now my enthusiasm towards gaining mass is somewhat diminished in light of my compromised ability to squat/deadlift heavy (due to the recurrent hip pain).

[Tom Campitelli]

Hey Tom. I've tried fixes like this, literally rotating on the way down and such, but as I think you will appreciate, this just gets incredibly awkward at some point. It's kind of hard to hold: sit back, chest up, knees out, left shoulder down, right elbow up simultaneously in your head without it feeling like an absolute mess. Which is kind of the problem, obviously.

Understood. However, I would bet that much of your squat is already reasonably well established. You might be able to think just about that left shoulder and make it work.

Bodyweight is low at the moment (150's somewhere), but I've been 20 lbs heavier than this and it made no difference to the asymmetry. Right now my enthusiasm towards gaining mass is somewhat diminished in light of my compromised ability to squat/deadlift heavy (due to the recurrent hip pain).

You anticipated my next question. I was wondering if as the muscules grew and the leverages changed, how things would feel? How tall are you? I realize not everyone wants to get as big as they can, but if you hurt less at a heavier bodyweight, then it is something to think about. My back feels a lot better at 225 than it did at 175, as do most of my joints.

Involuntary twisting during the squat is a tricky problem to solve especially without real time input as you are moving.

[Dwayne_KONG_Wint]

Have you tried changing your grip width? What happens if you go tighter/wider on your grip?

[blowdpanis]

Have you tried changing your grip width? What happens if you go tighter/wider on your grip?

A closer grip tends to make it a little more asymmetric, so there's definitely a shoulder flexibility/something component to it. I've also tried a setup like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceqG52ZIrH4

This also helps a little, but doesn't exactly fix the problem, and necessitates a high bar position. Actually, a combination of the above (removing a lot of the shoulder flexibility requirements via strapped squatting) + recentering the bar is probably about as even as I've ever gotten the lift to look, but this wouldn't be a lasting solution if/when I want to go back to a low bar squat.

[blowdpanis]

Understood. However, I would bet that much of your squat is already reasonably well established. You might be able to think just about that left shoulder and make it work.



You anticipated my next question. I was wondering if as the muscules grew and the leverages changed, how things would feel? How tall are you? I realize not everyone wants to get as big as they can, but if you hurt less at a heavier bodyweight, then it is something to think about. My back feels a lot better at 225 than it did at 175, as do most of my joints.

I feel you on this, and honestly, I'd like to put myself back into the 170-180 range. If I can get my hip fixed I intend to do just that.

Involuntary twisting during the squat is a tricky problem to solve especially without real time input as you are moving.

Indeed. That said, I am going to attempt your suggestion about thinking of putting my left shoulder down/forward a bit, and I'll report back with how it went tomorrow night.

[blowdpanis]

Okay, so Tom's "left shoulder down" cue seems to have worked shockingly well at leveling the bar. Here's some squats from tonight, 3 different views:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S_IxJcI-30&feature=youtu.be

The rear view shows the (inherent?) asymmetry in my hips probably the best. I think there's a limit of what I can do here - as I said, I literally have two differently shaped hips. Having the bar mostly level definitely feels different, it felt like I was twisted even though I was straight. I think my right hip actually felt a little weaker, too, which might explain the hip shiftiness that seems to be slightly more prevalent. It's possible that the twisting was at least partially a compensation for my weak hip, seemingly.

Either way, let me know what you guys think. I was worried I might literally have been twisting, but the side view seems to look fine (i.e. the middle of the bar seems to line up pretty well with the middle of the foot at the bottom, as opposed to drifting forward of this point were I twisting appreciably).

edit: updated with latest video.