Strength levels for OL?

[navi86]

How do you know when you have adequate strength relative to your OL competitive lifts. I'm guessing there is probably no set formula (i.e. squat has to be at least 150% of clean+jerk), but are there any indicators or ways to tell?

[Mark Rippetoe]

This question is astonishingly vague. What the hell are you asking about?

[navi86]

Sorry about the vagueness. This was my 3rd time trying to post so I guess I got lazy by the time it finally worked.


Success in Olympic lifting is a function of at least strength, speed, technique, and flexibility. Time spent on one of those elements is time you could be spending on the others. What I am asking is, how do you know if you have enough maximal strength for how much you are lifting in the competitive OL lifts?

For example, if I have a 500lb. squat and a 100lb. clean, then it is pretty obvious maximal strength is not something I need to focus on for the time being. But what if I only have a 300, 200, or 110lb. squat and 100lb. clean? I'm sure everyone is different and there is no set ratio for maximal strength in the squat vs. your clean, but are there any indicators/clues that will tell you if maximal strength is or is not your problem?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Everybody operates at a different level of efficiency with respect to turning force production into power. Also, anyone capable of becoming a competitive weightlifter has about 95% of their technical ability developed in the snatch and the C&J by the end of the first year of training, so while it is true that training each parameter represents time that could be spent training other parameters, the real question will always be, which parameter's improvement will contribute the most to my total? Speed is largely controlled by genetic endowment, as sad as this may be, because it is almost purely a function of the efficiency of the the neuromuscular system and the density of motor unit innervation; it cannot be improved much more than 25%, if that. Flexibility is developed by the exercises themselves, and while some supplemental stretching may be necessary at first for more inflexible individuals, it doesn't represent a huge investment of time and effort.

So we're left with strength, aren't we? A guy with a 500 lb. squat and a 100 lb. clean has that ratio for about a week, and then normal improvement for a person capable of doing the sport rapidly carries this ratio closer to where it should be. The real question, stated another way, is this: if a guy has a 500 lb. squat and a 300 lb. clean, is technically good at the clean, and has been stable at this ratio for several months, what will be the best way to get his clean to go up? Or what would be the best way to improve the 300 lb. clean of a guy with a 400 lb. squat? In either case, the easiest way -- and the most often neglected or overlooked way, for whatever the reason -- is to increase the squat. And the deadlift while we're at it. Because no matter what the ratio is, once it's stable it should be recognized as That Individual's indicator of the strength/power relationship and used accordingly.

I know that this is not mainstream Olympic weightlifting thinking. I just think that it should be.

[navi86]

Thanks for the reply! You make a lot of sense. Too bad speed can't be improved much.

I have 1 follow-up question: What do you feel are effective strength exercises for the "2nd pull"? The squat and deadlift, for me at least, are the hardest near the bottom of the movement, not at the top. When I used to powerlift, my speed from the floor would carry me mostly through lockout. Would you do suggest rack pulls, deadlifts with chains/bands, hyperextensions, or something else?

Thanks again.

[Mark Rippetoe]

This would depend on whether your second pull is weak or slow. If weak, rack pulls fix that range of motion. If slow, the movement speed has to be cued in the actual clean and snatch, because I have found that high-pulls don't really have good carryover to the full pull. This way, what improvement can be made in speed gets applied in the same context it will be used.

[Polynomial]

If weak, rack pulls fix that range of motion.

What about shrugs?

[Mark Rippetoe]

The range of motion is too short to have much carryover to the second pull.

[Polynomial]

How would you program those rack pulls to assist in the second pull? Are we talking lighter weights with a more explosive movement, or heavy ass weights for doubles or singles, or a combination of both?

[Mark Rippetoe]

I would do heavy 5s, and just get the range of motion strong. Then clean practice picks up the strength and incorporates it as best the athlete is able.