41% BF, Still on LP, need to Cut but Don't Know How

[coleossus]

I spent about 15 minutes using Google's "site:" search function to examine these forums and several other reputable sites for my question, but I couldn't find anything that pertained to a lifter in my position.

6', 26 yrs old, ~41% bodyfat at around 330-335 lbs and dropping painfully slowly. My squat is up to 430, deadlift up to 445, and my presses are 165 and 205 for ohp and bench respectively.

I'm a very novice lifter, just 7-8 months of SS and nothing prior. All searches yield results for lifters in the 10-15% BF range cutting for meets, and mostly just water-weight stuff. I have more LP in me but my obesity is interfering - I can especially tell on the deadlifting.

My priority was initially getting as strong as I could, but I've surpassed my initial 400 lb lifting goal, and even though I'm convinced my LP isn't finished my priority is now to cut to 17-20% BF.

Questions:

Do I use the same cutting regimen as a lifter with lower bodyfat, or am I correct in my assumption that I can abuse myself a little more since my body has more fat to burn off?

If I just use a general cutting regimen, and run it for longer, can someone point me in the right direction that could get me started on designing a new or adapting my current program to a cut? I can't find anything that clearly explains from the ground up how to do it, only acronym references to other programs which don't turn up on searching.

Is it possible to reduce the volume but maintain the intensity of my compound lifts so I maintain the strength I've gained (as much as possible), but still continue advancing on my bench and ohp? Is this a feasible idea?

My thinking is that my squat and deadlift have reached a sufficiently taxing level that my LP is slowing, but not quite finished, but my presses are so painfully far behind the curve that I might be able to continue to drive them before they get to a similarly taxing level (I know they won't ever be as taxing as compound movements).

Thanks for the help! Sorry, just having trouble finding these answers on my own.

[MikeP]

Case 3 is semi-applicable. To Be A Beast | Barbell Medicine

Have you asked Jordan for advice in the nutrition forum?

My unprofessional recommendation is as follows. Start counting your calories using myfitnesspal or similar. Weigh yourself everyday, first thing in the morning. Whatever you are currently eating, eat 200 cal/day less. Adjust this number by one or two hundred calories per day each week until your weight starts going down at 1-2 lbs per week. If you lose 2 lb/s week that 104 lbs in a year. Keep lifting and eat lots of protein to make sure you are losing fat not muscle. When LP stalls switch to Heavy-Light-Medium. (There's an explanation on Andy Baker's website.) You should be able to maintain high strength levels while losing a lot of fat in this way. As you start to get leaner, you may need to slow the rate of weight loss down to 1 lb / week. Rule of thumb is that if your strength is holding up, your current weight loss pace is good. If you strength starts to plummet, you are cutting too fast.

But seriously, read TBAB above, come up with a plan based on that and ask Jordan if it makes sense. And congrats on the 430 squat.

[coleossus]

Thanks for the input from both of you!

My concern is less a nutritional one, and more of a programming one. I've read the links from Barbell Medicine in great detail, one of the first and most-vouched articles I was shown here, and I understand nutritional manipulation. I use MFP, and I've done small deficits.

I don't understand how to appropriately adjust volume and intensity in my training to allow me to maintain my lifts while under a medium to large caloric deficit - or is this not realistic, I thought I've read other users doing similar things? So it's more of a programming question. Any resources that could help get me started on what maintenance programming might look during a sizeable cut? Couldn't find anything in Practical Programming, I might just be looking in the wrong locations.

[oshirok]

I think generally you'd go higher intensity and lower volume, but I've no idea about the specifics or how it'd be different for someone trying to run novice progression.

Maybe ask Andy Baker in his subforum. He definitely knows about programming on a cut.

[coleossus]

I'll check over there, thanks for the help everyone!

[Simon Rest]

My concern is less a nutritional one, and more of a programming one. I've read the links from Barbell Medicine in great detail, one of the first and most-vouched articles I was shown here, and I understand nutritional manipulation. I use MFP, and I've done small deficits.

based on your feeling that you still have LP left, and based on your previous threads I recommend that in the first instance you change nothing about your programming. while you start reducing your intake keep going with your LP. You have an inbuilt calorific surplus that your body will draw upon to fuel work and recovery. the first few weeks will be hard, but you adjust, just as you adjusted to lifting in the first few weeks. Once you get to a point that you miss your reps a few sessions in a row, throw in a light day on wednesday (ie Advanced Novice) and keep going. You should only be deadlifting once a week by now, right? then you'll get to a point where even with a light day you will miss reps. Don't get discouraged! if you miss a few weeks in a row on a particular lift, instead of doing 5 x 3 across, do one set of 5 at your work weight, and 2 sets of 5 at 85% of that weight.

I agree with Mike P's advice on the intake part - and definitely read "to be a beast". Sleep lots

it's tough, but everything worthwhile is.

[jmelancon]

I can relate somewhat to the OP here, having been doing the program, followed by intermediate routines for almost 2 years now. I've been overweight (5'11", 260-275 lbs, 30-35% BF) the whole time. I've tracked macros on and off, and lost a little, and gained a little, off and on throughout this time period.

I reached out to Andy about 6 weeks ago for some programming help and diet advice. Andy put me on a high volume intermediate template (it's a TM split with a fair amount of assistance, and a LOT more volume than I was used to) with cardio 5 days a week (after each workout and on one of the off days). He also put me on a diet template that was a drastic lifestyle change: no fast food, no milk, no pizza. About 1800-2000 calories a day, with around 200g of protein. Fairly low carb, fairly low fat, all whole food.

When I read it, I thought, "there's no way in hell I'll recover from this." But, I figured, I just paid the guy a bunch of money, and I've been lurking on this site for years, and I know he knows what he's talking about, so I went with it.

I'm 6 weeks in, down 25 pounds, and haven't lost much strength at all. And I feel better physically than when I was doing a lower volume TM template. I've gotten pretty used to my oatmeal every morning, multiple protein shakes, and cooking my lunch and dinner every day.

I think there's a lot of advice about weight loss around here that's not really directed at fat guys, but at people who are misguided bodybuilder sorts that are 18% BF trying to get sub-10%. When you're over 30% fat, I think it's a hell of a lot harder to run yourself into the ground recovery-wise than what we tend to think, and more drastic dietary measures are much more likely to be successful.

So, practically speaking: get a coach! It's worth it! But lacking that, don't be afraid to keep the volume high, add some cardio in after your workouts, and make some bigger changes to your diet.

[coleossus]

Hey folks, I was going to let this thread die but I figured I'd post one more after seeing the extra replies.

I recommend looking into Jordan's nutrition and programming, or just his nutrition. Jussayin...if you afford it, its worth it.

I took your advice and looked into it since I hadn't actually asked for the rates. Sadly, I cannot afford it right now. I know it's a question of how badly I want to reach my strength goals, but I have other financial obligations I have to honor right now. I did, however, take everyone's repeated posting of the To Be a Beast article seriously and took a detailed re-read of it today and have adapted a carb-cycling program according to Jordan's outlined plan for a high bodyfat lifter, details of which are in my log. I think it's going to help me out quite a lot. Plus, I frankly haven't been doing my HIIT like I should, so my bitching is probably unfounded and a self-created problem that I'm going to fix immediately.

based on your feeling that you still have LP left, and based on your previous threads I recommend that in the first instance you change nothing about your programming. while you start reducing your intake keep going with your LP. You have an inbuilt calorific surplus that your body will draw upon to fuel work and recovery. the first few weeks will be hard, but you adjust, just as you adjusted to lifting in the first few weeks. Once you get to a point that you miss your reps a few sessions in a row, throw in a light day on wednesday (ie Advanced Novice) and keep going. You should only be deadlifting once a week by now, right? then you'll get to a point where even with a light day you will miss reps. Don't get discouraged! if you miss a few weeks in a row on a particular lift, instead of doing 5 x 3 across, do one set of 5 at your work weight, and 2 sets of 5 at 85% of that weight.

I agree with Mike P's advice on the intake part - and definitely read "to be a beast". Sleep lots

it's tough, but everything worthwhile is.

Rugby, I'm taking the advice in you've given here and not changing anything. I spent some serious time looking over my lifts today, and made some changes to my deadlift (detailed in my log) that greatly improved my performance. Yet again my problems were self-manufactured. Everything you said about moderating intake and adding light days are in my plans as soon as I hit walls like you said.

But, uh, I'm deadlifting every day right now. Cleans didn't agree with me (goddamned exhausting cleaning 170 lbs with 41% bodyfat), and I recognized some terrifyingly exaggerated layback (and subsequent back pain) that I wasn't able to correct to my satisfaction in the week I did cleans. I have neither the finances to afford proper coaching at this time, nor do I feel good about wasting time and losing more ground on the deadlift by screwing around with cleans at this time. My plan is to introduce light deadlift days like I will with squats when I hit a wall, and add chins as further arm assistance on those light days as long as my gains persist, until someone gives me an absolutely convincing reason to reconsider my opinion that screwing around with cleans is worth my time given my restrictions at this stage of my training. I'm open to re-evaluating this stance, though - I don't want to sound too hard-headed about it. I just figure since I haven't missed reps two subsequent deadlift workouts there's not a convincing reason to slow progress on them artificially.

Also, I'm usually in bed by 11 at the latest, giving me a minimum of 8 hours of sleep. I often go to bed 1 or 2 hours earlier than that, though. I've seen what a lack of sleep does to my gains. I don't screw around there.

Thanks for the encouragement, too. There's no amount of missed reps that are going to deter me from my strength goals, though. I can promise that much.

I can relate somewhat to the OP here, having been doing the program, followed by intermediate routines for almost 2 years now. I've been overweight (5'11", 260-275 lbs, 30-35% BF) the whole time. I've tracked macros on and off, and lost a little, and gained a little, off and on throughout this time period.

I reached out to Andy about 6 weeks ago for some programming help and diet advice. Andy put me on a high volume intermediate template (it's a TM split with a fair amount of assistance, and a LOT more volume than I was used to) with cardio 5 days a week (after each workout and on one of the off days). He also put me on a diet template that was a drastic lifestyle change: no fast food, no milk, no pizza. About 1800-2000 calories a day, with around 200g of protein. Fairly low carb, fairly low fat, all whole food.

When I read it, I thought, "there's no way in hell I'll recover from this." But, I figured, I just paid the guy a bunch of money, and I've been lurking on this site for years, and I know he knows what he's talking about, so I went with it.

I'm 6 weeks in, down 25 pounds, and haven't lost much strength at all. And I feel better physically than when I was doing a lower volume TM template. I've gotten pretty used to my oatmeal every morning, multiple protein shakes, and cooking my lunch and dinner every day.

I think there's a lot of advice about weight loss around here that's not really directed at fat guys, but at people who are misguided bodybuilder sorts that are 18% BF trying to get sub-10%. When you're over 30% fat, I think it's a hell of a lot harder to run yourself into the ground recovery-wise than what we tend to think, and more drastic dietary measures are much more likely to be successful.

So, practically speaking: get a coach! It's worth it! But lacking that, don't be afraid to keep the volume high, add some cardio in after your workouts, and make some bigger changes to your diet.

Thanks for the input! I think I covered my plan about adjusting my macros above, I just didn't want to miss saying thanks. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to weigh in on this. I'm such a novice, and there's so much bullshit lifting advise to sort through out there (in addition to good advice that just doesn't apply the same to me given how fat I am), so anyone adding their two cents is worth its weight in gold.

I think it bears repeating again that I believe fairly strongly that doing the carb-cycling adjustment and actually being disciplined about my HIIT will go a long way - those are probably the source of my recomposition woes. The stalls have all been fixable things so far, and bar speeds have kept up, so I'm just going to keep at it instead of letting my fears get the best of me.

Thanks again, everyone!

[Simon Rest]

yeah, fuck power cleans. you can sub in other lighter lifts instead of deads - Snatch grip or stiff legged. even just lighter sets with some more reps or sets

[George Christiansen]

I don't understand how to appropriately adjust volume and intensity in my training to allow me to maintain my lifts while under a medium to large caloric deficit - or is this not realistic,

You don't even have to think about doing this for quite a while. You are at the easy loses part of losing fat. You've got at least 75lbs before it should become an issue.

I say just keep training while cutting calories enough to lose weight while still progressing training wise. Cut 500 calories and see what happens.

If you stall you may very well be dropping too quickly and need to eat a little more. if you stop losing weight you obviously need to eat less, but that is the metric I would use.