people and stupid statements

[robertdawson]

In my total 3 years experience of lifting (broken up a year or two in between my 3 training periods) I have had a total of 3 injuries. None of them serious, though the shoulder deal has been time-consuming and is requiring some ortho help. The ortho business being the case I have had a fair amount of doctor's visits in the past months.

My 3rd one (sustained a few days ago) means another trip to the doctor. My parents said to me today "Why do you do something that you know is going to cause injuries? Only an insane person would do that. Why don't you just do some exercise like walking or running or just lift light weights? You always overdo it and hurt yourself. I just don't think you can take weight lifting." Essentially they are saying that lifting heavy is not safe, and I am a fool for doing such a dangerous method of exercise. I said I would rather lift hard and get a few injuries every now and then than be the people who go in and screw around and lift the pink hand weights for their "exercise".

Also, if one would like to train hard, e.g. a competitive lifter, is it expected that when you are older your joints will be shot? In the short-term joints get strengthened, but I have noticed several statements by older lifters saying that they should have taken it easy when they were younger. If you wanted to train as hard as you can to get as strong as you can but not have terrible joints later, would there be a point where it would be advisable to level off the intensity? I am confused, lifting hard and with correct form produces stronger everything in the short-term, so why does that translate into ruined joints of older lifters?

[Mark Rippetoe]

If you are going to be a competitive lifter, you are going to have injuries. Training hard enough to beat other people who are also training hard enough to beat you is not conducive to long-term health, and it is different from training for fitness. Handling your parents aside, intense training for competition requires a willingness to train with injuries, and the willingness to train hard enough to get them.

Now, if you are not training that hard and you are still getting hurt, you are doing something wrong.

[robertdawson]

Hmm. I want to follow the guidelines in Practical Programming and just get as strong as possible, so regardless if I actually compete or not I will be training like a competitive lifter.

I really like training hard; getting stronger is really the only thing that makes it fun. Otherwise I would just be lifting for some vague ideal of "fitness", which isn't a definable goal and doesn't really make me any different from anyone else at the gym doing bicep curls and bench press machines.

In Practical Programming, you say that in the advanced stage you should reduce the volume 5% for every decade of life after 30 years old, and that on the lower intensity day it should be 10-15% reduction in intensity rather than 5 for younger people. Unless I am incorrect, this is because recovery processes are not as good as you age.

Is it possible to train that hard if I want to be "healthy" when I am older, i.e. having joints that don't ache abnormally all the time? Seems like I am in a catch 22 right now...

[tongzilla]

Mark,

When weight lifting at a high level, are injuries caused by incorrect technique, training too frequently or training too heavy? What are the most common causes for injury at the competitive level and why is your opinion that it is not possible to intelligently train to avoid these injuries? Afterall, weight lifting is not a contact sport like football or judo.

[Mark Rippetoe]

It is a sad fact that unless you are training for a meet you are actually going to lift in, you will not train as hard as if you were. If you are not an actual competitor, you will not be lifting the weights and receiving the stress that a competitor does. Enter a meet and see for yourself what happens to your training.

Another sad fact is that the weights handled by competitive lifters, especially competitive powerlifters, are hard on the joint cartilages of most people. Spines, knees, and shoulders get pretty beat up, and bony changes usually occur to all but the most genetically freaky. There are old lifters that are still in very good shape, but I'd say that most of us show signs of our previous exposure to heavy weight.

[robertdawson]

Wow, that is disheartening. There goes my goal of lifting as hard as I can for as long as I can; I'll end up an old dude you can't bend over without my spine hurting me. I guess I will just have to at some point lift for maintenance or "fitness", but at that point it isn't enjoyable anymore.

[robertdawson]

Aaaargh, why can't stupid joints, ligaments, etc. adapt as nicely as muscles do?!

[Peter_k]

It's interesting that you mention powerlifters specifically. I would have thought olympic lifters had it the worst.

It's a well-known fact that Louie Simmons is not a fan of O-lifting, but he makes a strong case for the safety of powerlifting over weightlifting. Many of the exercises he uses are explosive but better controlled than the O-lifts. Plus he makes great use of the reverse hyper machine, which can even be used for rehabbing injuries.

Do you think tomorrow's powerlifters might have longer careers if they train right from the start?

[robertdawson]

I am not interested in competing, at least with anyone other than myself. I just want to see how strong I can get, and could care less about anyone else.

I want to get as strong as possible with the main lifts, i.e. squat, deadlift, power clean, power snatch, press, bench press but specializing to a specific area like powerlifting routines wouldn't be very interesting to me.

Is there an age or point as someone gets closer to their genetic potential that they should just lift for maintenance? For instance, once you get to the point where you have exhausted intermediate programming, don't move up to advanced programming unless you want to be a competitor.

It seems so lame to me that if decide to compete you are likely to have old, worn-out joints later. You have spent years training to get progressively stronger, but the hard earned result of that is having joints that hurt routinely and you have a hard time doing what you spent so many years trying to adapt to ! This being the case I don't understand the reasoning behind competitive lifters; why do something that will hurt you in the long run?

Maybe this is why doctors think weight training is bad for the joints, because competitive lifters often end up with poor joints. They just fail to understand that competitive lifting is drastically different than a normal strength training program.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Powerlifters typically use much heavier weights than most weightlifters, and the spinal loading can be quite high. But weightlifters load dynamically, which can be just as bad if not more so. Hell boys, alls I know is that me and all my buddies are pretty beat up.

There is no concrete line beyond which you should not go, obviously, because everybody will achieve a different percentage of their genetic capacity at a different cost, and this is of course also controlled by genetics. There are lots of former national champions running around today that are fine having lifted very heavy 20 years ago, but the fact that they were genetically freaky enough to have been that strong is likely also responsible for the fact that they're still fine today. I'm as sorry as you are that I'm not in that elite group of athletes, and I never was. I had to train very hard for the tiny bit I accomplished, and I have paid for it for years. Only I can assess the sense this makes, and you'll have to do the same based on your individual priorities and values. Kinda like getting that tattoo on your neck: it may seem like a good idea now, but let's wait a few years and check back with you.