Butt Wink

[Frank_B]

Recently, in one of the technique threads, the subject of butt wink came up. Pete said the term was "verboten" around these parts. Curious as to why, I subsequently found an article about butt wink in the archives. I also listened to last week's podcast and the question about the leg press machine for a tall guy with a previous spinal surgery.

What I got out of the answer on the podcast was that his lower back was being put in flexion during the leg press. It sounded to me like the leg press forces a butt wink. With the answer being geared towards a guy with a previous back surgery, I get why the answer would be as such. Also, in both the squat and deadlift section of the blue book (SS 3rd Edition) it talks about the "back muscles and hamstrings being in a battle for control of the pelvis, and that the lower back must win in order for the spine to remain rigid and safe." Again, confirmation that under general circumstances, we don't want lumbar flexion.

Now, in the Butt Wink article, it seems to indicate that a little bit of butt wink (lumbar flexion) isn't all that bad. Per the article, it's not an "anatomical catastrophe," while "wholesale lumbar flexion" is certainly out of the question. As a long-femured skinny guy who suffers like hell with depth issues, I often feel like I'm giving up a little bit of my extension to try and reach depth. As we get stronger, the article implies this may disappear. Generally, though, it seems like this is a bad habit to get into because I feel like it forces me to let go of some tightness in my lower back. I worry as the weights get heavier that I'll still be compensating in this manner to attempt to reach depth. It hasn't caused issues yet, so no, it's not the same as turning my head 180 degrees to the rear, but I'm a little confused: Is it ok to let the hamstrings win a bit for the sake of depth? Also, if a little bit of lumbar flexion is ok in the squat, then why not the deadlift where a very similar battle between lower back and hamstrings is being fought?

Thank You.

[Nockian]

Depends on the level of advancement as I understand it. SS is about novices learning the correct technique for safe lifting, not about highly trained lifters who often adapt the techniques to the point where they appear to be flawed/unsafe-but lift enormous loads without causing themselves injury. The answer is, that if you are a novice, then don't squat a weight that causes technique failure, if you are an experienced lifter, then do what works.

[hansuswurstus]

You are refering to the thread I started. I am curious about this as well. I have some degree of lumbar flexion/butt wink at the bottom of the squat. HOWEVER, if you watch SS videos where the squat is taught by Rip, there is always lumbar flexion in the squat.


Examples:

YouTube
YouTube

Plus Pete Troupos assumed in my video that the lumbar flexion wasn't too bad.

I have already read the chapter in SS 3rd edition about the lower back control. I can definitely isometrically contract my lower back. However, the lumbar flexion is still there. It is downright impossible for me not to have it.

Considering all this I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter as long as you do the Valsalva technique and have otherwise decent form. I will know better when some day my lower back will break.

I assume the term butt wink is "verboten" because it is extensively used by Crossfitters.

[Soule]

Butt wink is a silly little jazz word that is widely used in the fitness industry by people who don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.

[stef]

"Butt wink" is a term used by people who are fixated on the changing shape of the ass and don't understand that they are misinterpreting this as lumbar flexion.

It is a stupid term, but not as dumb as confusing spines and glutes.

[stef]

The answer is, that if you are a novice, then don't squat a weight that causes technique failure, if you are an experienced lifter, then do what works.

No.

[Nockian]

No.

Why ?

[Frank_B]

Why ?

I think this relates to what I was trying to ask. The book seems to indicate that the low back must win the battle, but the article seems to imply something along the lines of a wee bit of flexion not mattering. I only ask because I struggle with depth and know that I do give a bit of flexion to try and attain it. I'm not trying to start a battle or debate, but I am genuinely interested in the answer.

[Nockian]

I think this relates to what I was trying to ask. The book seems to indicate that the low back must win the battle, but the article seems to imply something along the lines of a wee bit of flexion not mattering. I only ask because I struggle with depth and know that I do give a bit of flexion to try and attain it. I'm not trying to start a battle or debate, but I am genuinely interested in the answer.

If your lower back is seriously extended in flexion, then to me, it's like trying to keep the back too vertical, the result will be slack hamstrings and no stretch reflex (sitting on your heels). It's more like collapsing into the hole, rather than keeping things tight and controlled. The over extension should be evident with some lower back pain/soreness I would have thought ?

I'm probably way off the mark here as I was in the previous post, so take what I'm saying with a barrel of salt.