Squat form check / cues for knees forward

[Nick]

Hi,

Before Christmas I started on the novice progression and was making decent progress, but I was never really happy with my squat form - my knees tended to slide forward at the bottom. I'd reached 110kg on the squat, progressing 2.5kg per session, and they felt relatively easy (i.e. I had plenty of strength and felt like I was weeks or months away from stalling), but my form wasn't great. I've had an enforced 3-week break over Christmas and am starting back now, but I thought I'd just shoot some video today and ask for some opinions and help fixing my form.

First off, a set of 3 with 70kg. Overall I don't think the form is too bad here - depth is good, there's a little bit of lower-back rounding but it's not terrible, and my knees don't look bad to me - is that a fair assessment? Or is the form actually shit and I'm just not seeing it? Comments please!

http://www.vimeo.com/8649763

Next up, a set of 3 with 90kg. Here my knees are definitely sliding forward at the bottom. This is typical of my form whenever I go above 80kg or so; my form doesn't seem to get worse than this when it's heavier, but it's no better either.

http://www.vimeo.com/8649782

I've tried the knees out / chest up cue but that doesn't seem to help much; I've tried TUBOW but again it hasn't really helped. In the first video I was concentrating on pulling my knees backwards at the bottom, which seemed to work, but I concentrated on exactly the same cue in the second video and it obviously didn't work then.

Is there anything else I should try, or anything else wrong with my form that might be contributing? Do I just need to try harder to keep the knees back? Is it a flexibility thing (I'm very inflexible all over, particularly in the hamstrings)? I'm squatting barefoot at the moment but will be getting WL shoes soon; are these likely to help?

Additionally - is this something I should fix before I progress with the weight? Possibly the most frustrating thing is that these weights don't feel at all heavy. I honestly feel like I could squat 140kg or more quite easily (with the same - i.e. imperfect - form as the second video). I'm not sure whether I should be staying with light weights and progressing slowly from there in order to perfect my form; or forging ahead with the weights in order to actually get stronger and trying to work on form at the same time (e.g. with back-off sets every session or something).

Any advice welcome!

Thanks,
Nick.

[Dastardly]

In the last rep at 70kg your slide forward at the bottom.

Every rep of 90kg you slide forward at the bottom.

I am correcting a similar issue for myself. I spent the whole of last year squatting with exaggerated sit-back.

I squatted today with knees forward cue and it felt loads better, I was able to get more hip drive and my low back was tighter.

The easiest way to do it is forget everything you have learnt about 'sitting back' and go straight down, letting knees go however forward they want to at the beginning.

As long as you are using the low-bar, your back is tight and you keep the bar over centre of gravity then the form just deals with itself as its the most balanced/efficient way for it to work.

[blowdpanis]

In the last rep at 70kg your slide forward at the bottom.

Every rep of 90kg you slide forward at the bottom.

I am correcting a similar issue for myself. I spent the whole of last year squatting with exaggerated sit-back.

I squatted today with knees forward cue and it felt loads better, I was able to get more hip drive and my low back was tighter.

The easiest way to do it is forget everything you have learnt about 'sitting back' and go straight down, letting knees go however forward they want to at the beginning.

As long as you are using the low-bar, your back is tight and you keep the bar over centre of gravity then the form just deals with itself as its the most balanced/efficient way for it to work.

I second this.

I think way, way too much is made of the "sit back" cue. It's very useful for some people, but if you think about what you actually do when you sit back (i.e. back into the hips), you are basically minimizing the knee angle. This is not useful outside of competitive PLing, imho, as you want the quads to contribute as much as possible, too.

If you logic it out, there are basically three criteria for a good squat:

1) Balance (of you + barbell) is kept approximately over midfoot.
2) Back is locked in extension.
3) Knees are "out" such that your femur/knee/shin/foot are in the same vertical plane.

Within that context, you simply go as low as you can given all three of those stay true, which will be the limit of people's hamstring/adductor flexibility.

Where does "sit back?" figure in there? Some people do have a tendency to allow their weight to collapse forward, so it could be useful for them.

But I think the most useful idea to get across to people is that you are, as per Dan John, "squatting between the legs." While this idea seems to have been tossed around more in the context of high bar squats, it's the same idea with low bar, you'll simply be comparatively more bent over due to the bar placement.

As such, you can get a lot of people to squat well, quickly, by basically telling them to "squat right down between your own legs, keeping your back tight." The degree of forward lean then becomes a combination of anthropometry and bar placement, and you don't need to worry so much about "shoving the butt back," because the details will tend to work themselves out as long as you simply remain evenly balanced.

[HamptonMike]

I agree with what has been said here so far and I also had this exact problem. The "sit back" cue always seemed to fold me over in half, put the weight on my toes, and make everything harder than necessary. I dropped some weight and fiddled with my stance found an inch or two wider and really shoving the knees out really locked my lower legs in place. This worked better then raising my toes in my shoes to keep the weight in line.

[Tom Campitelli]

Aside from the knees sliding forward noticeably at the bottom, your squat looks okay. As mentioned earlier, you should allow your knees to come forward earlier in the squat. The ideal is that the hips unlock and then the knees come forward (slightly over the toes) during the first half of the descent. Once you get to the halfway point, then knees need to stay put. Get those knees forward earlier.

Lifting shoes will likely help, especially if you are inflexible. Should you correct this problem before squatting heavy weights? Yes. Your amount of travel at the bottom is problematic and indicates that you are relaxing the hamstrings, or letting the bar drift too far forward of the midfoot in the descent, or both. It has the potential to bother your hips as the weights go up.

Where do you live? Can you find a good coach in your area? One or two sessions with a competent coach would probably set you on the right course. Consider a barbell seminar with Rip, too. They are very worthwhile.

[Nick]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I've never really cued "sitting back", though I can see where concentrating on that too much might cause problems.

I'll try getting the knees forward earlier and see if that does the trick; sounds like it may well help. I'll try to get hold of the camera again and shoot some more video to compare. TomC, thanks also for the confirmation that there are no other horrendous issues, and that I need to fix this before progressing the weight; I was getting impatient, but a few weeks spent sorting my form out now will pay dividends in the long run. I assume I should continue progressing with the other exercises as normal while I fix my squat form?

I'd love to get to a seminar, but I'm in the UK and it seems unlikely that Rip'll be coming over here any time soon... though if he ever does brave our gun-fearing shores I'd sign up in a shot. There's also a dearth of decent coaches in my area and I've yet to find anyone I'd be confident in, though I do keep hunting.

Thanks again, I'll no doubt be bugging you again for more advice soon...!

[elVarouza]

"Knees out" or better, "open the groin" always seemed to do it for me. When I concentrate hard on opening the groin my knees stay put at the bottom, because they must come in to go forward. Also when I think 'open the groin' at the start I've found it also forces the knees out to the correct position early. Give it a try if you like, YMMV.

I also never liked "sit back". I've used it successfully with a friend who always comes up on his toes (read: heels come off the ground), but aside from limiting cases like that I never liked it. It always fucked me up at least.

A bit off topic, I think part of the problem is people listening too much to the cues that geared powerlifters use. For example, "sit back" is a great cue when you're doing box squats or when you're squatting in a multi-ply suit, but yelling "sit back" at a raw squatter isn't always applicable. Similar is the "tuck your elbows" cue on the bench press: it's great when you're benching in a tight shirt and touch the bar to your belly, but for a raw bencher you don't want to tuck your elbows that hard.

As much as I've tried different cues I've always found that the ones Rip mentions in SS:BBT and other articles/books are ultimately the most helpful, with the only personal exception being 'open the groin' vs. 'knees out'. Whenever I read about a new cue or new whatever on the internet it always fucks me up somehow if I try to use it.

[misspelledgeoff]

the single most useful squat cue I've used is "shove the knees out". It's important to note that simply angling your feet and and hoping your knees will track out over them is usually not enough. read Rip's latest article on "active hip". When I forcefully push my knees out on the way to the bottom I almost always get a proper squat.

[Nick]

Thanks again for that. I've tried "knees out" and still hit the same problem, but it may be that I need to get the knees moving into position earlier and think "knees out". Of course, it might also be that even when I've thought "knees out" I'm just not doing it hard enough.

I'll be squatting again tomorrow and I intend dropping the weight down and spending as long as it takes to get a decent squat; I'll try both ways and see which works best.

Cheers,
Nick.

[misspelledgeoff]

yeah try aggressively shoving your knees out--not just thinking it. I have to do very aggressively, starting about halfway down into the squat, or it doesn't work. worth a shot, right?

Thanks again for that. I've tried "knees out" and still hit the same problem, but it may be that I need to get the knees moving into position earlier and think "knees out". Of course, it might also be that even when I've thought "knees out" I'm just not doing it hard enough.

I'll be squatting again tomorrow and I intend dropping the weight down and spending as long as it takes to get a decent squat; I'll try both ways and see which works best.

Cheers,
Nick.