Upper body hypertrophy in the context of the Texas Method: TM on steroids

[Red Finn]

I've been mulling this over for weeks, and I think I'm close to a resolution, but I'd like to ask you guys for your opinion on part of my program.

This whole post is about figuring out how hard I can work without overworking. In other words, I am attempting to maximize the rate of progress as much as I can.

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Stats:

Male
23 years old
5'10"
184 lbs
Mid-upper teens body fat % (17-18% by Navy method, upper abs barely kind of visible, maybe)
Very late novice, or very early intermediate

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Discussion:

I'm not a bodybuilder. This is strictly about gittin' Strawng. It's my feeling, based on my lifts and looking at myself in the mirror, that I need to gain a lot of upper body muscle in order to get closer to the maximum rate of progress that I'm capable of achieving. I have never done anything other than sets of five, and I figure I need to give a hard look at focusing on tonnage/hypertrophy for a while.

I am quite motivated, and my nutrition, supplements, and sleep habits are pretty good. This discussion is about looking for ways to maximize the rate of progress, or getting as close as I can, anyway.

Jordan Feigenbaum recently put out an article discussing twelve ways to modify the Texas Method for various considerations. I don't think any of them are the right fit for me. John Hanley has offered a number of TM variations, and the one that caught my eye the most was his work with Levon, who is in roughly the same demographic that I'm in.

John's basic suggestion for Levon was this (1):

Monday:

Bench x8 for 4-6 sets


Tuesday:

Press x8 for 4-6 sets


Friday:

Bench x4@10, with maybe one or two slight drop sets



My first inclination was to turn his suggestion into this (2):

Monday:

Bench x8 for 4-6 sets


Tuesday:

Press x8 for 4-6 sets


Thursday:

Bench x4@10, with maybe one or two slight drop sets


Friday:

Press x4@10, with maybe one or two slight drop sets


In other words, I slipped a second upper body intensity workout in on Thursday. I don't think this should be too much to recover from week-to-week, but if you guys feel otherwise, you can try to convince me.

Now, I want to get to the main issue in this post. The main reason John switched the volume work to 8's is to get more tonnage, and therefore more hypertrophy. However, Jordan has suggested that, if volume (i.e. number of reps) is equal, lower reps offer more hypertrophy than higher reps.

For example:

8 sets of 5 reps at 175 lbs should create more hypertrophy than
5 sets of 8 reps at 160 lbs

This makes some intuitive sense, since the tonnage is higher when working with five reps. The caveat here is that lower reps may offer more hypertrophy, as long as you are able to recover from the workload. Recall my note at the top of this post - I'm trying to figure out how hard I can work without stepping over the line.

So the revised-revised program would look like this (3):

Monday:

Bench x5 for 7-8 sets


Tuesday:

Press x5 for 7-8 sets


Thursday:

Bench x3@10, with maybe one or two slight drop sets


Friday:

Press x3@10, with maybe one or two slight drop sets


I dropped intensity from fours to threes because... well, I guess that seemed like the right thing to do. If anyone feels I should use a different rep range for intensity work, you can let me know.

You might be asking yourself, "how does he plan to get in 8 sets of five? Who has that kind of energy?" Well, one option would be wrap my upper body work around my squats. In other words, on Monday or Tuesday, I could bench 3-4 sets of 5, then squat, then return to the bench for another 4-5 sets of 5.

So, if I write out my whole program, it would look something like this (4):

Monday:

Bench x5 for 3-4 sets
Squat (might use 8's here)
Bench x5 for 4-5 sets

Tuesday:

Press x5 for 3-4 sets
Squat 8's
Press x5 for 4-5 sets
Some sort of pull volume
Chinups


Thursday:

Bench x3@10, with maybe one or two slight drop sets
Chinups (either today or Friday)


Friday:

Press x3@10, with maybe one or two slight drop sets
Squat intensity (maybe 4's)
Deadlift intensity (unsure of rep range)
Curls


Every week I'd alternate the order of the presses. In other words, Week 1 would be bench-press-bench-press, and Week 2 would be press-bench-press-bench.

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I'm sorry to have written such a long post, but I'm trying to provide relevant information in a clear manner, without writing a novel.

You might be wondering what my plan is, body-composition wise. I've lost about 25 pounds in the last 4-6 months, most of which was inadvertent. (Illness, minor surgery, etc.) I don't naturally have a lot of appetite, and I'm kind of trying to get laid here and there, so I don't think I can stomach the thought of racing back up to 210 lbs and 20+% body fat. My plan is to stay roughly this weight for now and continue to lose fat until I have reached whatever leanness is sustainable (I'm guessing ~12%), and then add muscle from there. In other words, I am planning to add muscle at the maximum rate possible while still staying fairly lean. This is not about staying skinny - I want to be 210 lbs at 10% body fat one day.

I am learning to track my macros, so I should be able to get my nutrition dialed in fairly well. I will have some other physical activity several days of the week (sports), but I think it will be at a low enough intensity that I don't consider it a huge issue.

I have not discussed lower body programming in detail mostly because it's not the emphasis of this post, and I feel like it's simpler than upper body programming. I am not really looking to slow down lower body progress for aesthetic reasons (big thighs, small upper body), but I would consider slightly tweaking the emphasis in favor of the upper body as far as strength gains are concerned, if that were necessary.

If you've read everything to this point, you're a trooper, so thanks. If anyone has advice or experience attempting something like this, I'd appreciate it. As an attempt to return the favor to the community, I will offer to log my workouts for at least the next two months if anyone offers valuable enough input.

[Red Finn]

I'll consider it, thanks.

Honestly I was considering going to the gym six days a week (pressing and benching three times each), and doing a sort of two-day volume, one-day intensity like is en vogue with squats around here. I don't really know if that's insane or not.

What is confusing is that you hear people say "you shouldn't increase volume until you have to," but they rarely explain why. It seems at odds with the other thing you hear people say, which is that most people are undertrained, while almost no one is overtrained.

[Kundahli]

Splitting up volume in a workout is very "Sheiko". One of the 3 day programs he has floating around includes a Bench-Squat-Bench day.

Anyway, why not just try to run Hanley's suggested program for a bit? From this post I gather that you immediately changed his program without offering much justification for why you did so. Run it for 12 weeks, see how much you grow, and then reassess. Don't make things more complicated than they need to be.



Alternatively, why not try to run Hanley's program in a block fashion:

Monday:
Bench x8 for 4-6 sets -> x5 for 4-6 -> x3 for 4-6


Tuesday:
Press x8 for 4-6 sets -> x5 for 4-6 -> x3 for 4-6


Thursday:
Bench x4@10, with maybe one or two slight drop sets -> x3 @10 -> x2@10 -> 5x1 @ 10



Simple solution for getting the best of both worlds, hypertrophy and strength.

[Red Finn]

Splitting up volume in a workout is very "Sheiko". One of the 3 day programs he has floating around includes a Bench-Squat-Bench day.

I don't know anything about Sheiko, so I can't really evaluate if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Anyway, why not just try to run Hanley's suggested program for a bit? From this post I gather that you immediately changed his program without offering much justification for why you did so. Run it for 12 weeks, see how much you grow, and then reassess. Don't make things more complicated than they need to be.

I tweaked Hanley's suggestion because I like the idea of benching and pressing at least twice a week each. I really do not like the idea of pressing once one week and benching once the next week - my technique is getting better, but it needs more work (my press especially, since I'm developing my own technique for that lift.)

Doing a movement once a week is not a good way to improve form.

However, I would agree that it is reasonable to do something akin to what Hanley suggested for a couple months, and then consider stepping it up if things have gone well to that point.

Alternatively, why not try to run Hanley's program in a block fashion:

Monday:
Bench x8 for 4-6 sets -> x5 for 4-6 -> x3 for 4-6


Tuesday:
Press x8 for 4-6 sets -> x5 for 4-6 -> x3 for 4-6


Thursday:
Bench x4@10, with maybe one or two slight drop sets -> x3 @10 -> x2@10 -> 5x1 @ 10



Simple solution for getting the best of both worlds, hypertrophy and strength.

Well, I'm not really sure a new intermediate is advanced enough to need to run a block-type program.

But I could be wrong. The question I'm asking is not "what works," but rather "what works best," or as close as I can get to that, anyway.

Worst case, I'd probably consider running (2) for a couple months, and then consider stepping up to (3) or (4).

[John Hanley]

Won't be able to add shit until next week...but 2 ideas on 'too much volume'.

- it's all about optimization of tonnage. If you do 8x5@175 on day 1, you might undermine day 3's opportunity for optimal tonnage (you might fatigue early, or be forced to use a lighter load, etc). In a high frequency scheme, you want to hit a precise "dose" of fatigue that allows for sufficient recovery from day 1 to day 3 (note: this never actually happens; if you're strong enough, you'll always have residual fatigue...so you'll need a low stress week/deload at some point ).

- ***Broscience Warning*** if the volume you use is excessive for your realistic anabolic ceiling within your microcycle, you've made yourself more resistant to high volume without a concomitant increase in strength. (Ie you've made it harder to disrupt homeostasis, but without gainzZZ...and that's just pure gaynzZz ™

Notes: Pretty sure I've never actually used concimitant before. Second point is pure Bro as far as I know.

[Red Finn]

Won't be able to add shit until next week...but 2 ideas on 'too much volume'.

- it's all about optimization of tonnage. If you do 8x5@175 on day 1, you might undermine day 3's opportunity for optimal tonnage (you might fatigue early, or be forced to use a lighter load, etc). In a high frequency scheme, you want to hit a precise "dose" of fatigue that allows for sufficient recovery from day 1 to day 3 (note: this never actually happens; if you're strong enough, you'll always have residual fatigue...so you'll need a low stress week/deload at some point ).

This jives with what Jordan has written about how once you've kickstarted an MPS cycle, lifting well beyond that threshold doesn't necessarily increase the magnitude of that MPS event. So based on that, it sounds like the theoretical ideal is to work just hard enough to kickstart an MPS cycle (but not much more), and do that as frequently as you need to. (It's unclear to me whether it's better to wait until that MPS cycle has finished before working a given lift again, or whether you can just show up and do it again the next day. It probably depends on your workload.)

This is more or less why I was considering lifting six days a week - to keep MPS chronically elevated.

- ***Broscience Warning*** if the volume you use is excessive for your realistic anabolic ceiling within your microcycle, you've made yourself more resistant to high volume without a concomitant increase in strength. (Ie you've made it harder to disrupt homeostasis, but without gainzZZ...and that's just pure gaynzZz ™

Notes: Pretty sure I've never actually used concimitant before. Second point is pure Bro as far as I know.

I have heard people say that intensity blocks serve to allow you to resensitize to volume by the time you start your next volume block. I have no idea if that's true, though.

If Mr. Hanley doesn't get back to me (and no one else swoops in and reveals the One True Way), my inclination is to go with (2) for several weeks and see how that goes. My thinking is that it's better (psychologically if nothing else) to (a) undershoot a little bit, develop some momentum, and then slowly ramp things up if things have gone well for several weeks. Better to do that than (b) overshoot and crash after a while, in other words.

Although, if I could reasonably guess the weekly rate of progress for both approaches, and know roughly how often I'd need a deload week for approach (b), then I could calculate a rate of progress estimate for both (a) and (b), in pounds per week.

It may be unrealistic to expect to forecast that accurately, though.

[PackMule]

I think they both can work. You could even do presses in #1 on Friday immediately after benching. You're only doing 4s...so no big deal to add press after bench. It's not gonna be absolute max level pressing, but still as long as it gets stronger in that somewhat (it's only 4s) fatigued state, then it's good to go.

I definitely agree with Hanley's broscience warning. I did some retarded shit one time where I was squatting 3x a week for 8sets of 5 each day. Got good at doing volume, did not get stronger.

I'd throw some broccessory work in there too...delt raises, curlzzz, tri extensions, rows. Can't hurt. Feels good.

[Gerhard]

Take from this what you may, but I'm starting to wonder whether there's a really powerful genetic barrier at work for some of us. From my own perspective, my upper body is extremely lagging. I've seemingly regressed on the bench press recently, and have dinky long little childlike arms that haven't responded to a great deal of pressing volume in the past 15 weeks. In addition to that, mass the small amount of mass I do gain is almost solely focused in the legs and back.

The point I'm getting at is that you may find yourself not getting the results you are after, even with increased volume and frequency, due to genetic limitations. Everybody responds differently. One of the common complaints about programs like SS and TM is that there isn't enough upper body work and people are often left with a lot to be desired. But then, you'll find a number of people who do get really fucking strong across all the lifts, especially the Bench and Press with the perceived lack of frequency and volume for them. Genetics, genetics, genetics, it's the only possible conclusion.

So what does one do? I'm trying to nail that myself, working alongside Jordan Feigenbaum, pouring hours into the literature of Zatsiorsky and Bompa. I suspect though it comes down to two options for some lifters. The first is the stupid one, taking steroids to counteract genetic restrictions, forcing accelerated hypertrophy all over, leading to a guaranteed development of the upper body. That's not something I'd do, nor recommend others do. The second is finding something that works for you as an individual, as I stated before, we're all different, we may have genetic limitations, but I don't doubt they can be overcome, it's just about trying something different, maybe even something that defies conventional training thought.

[ambivalens]

Wouldn't it be relevant to programming advice to know how much the OP is actually benching? I'm not trying to be smart, but from reading the entire post (yes, I did it!), a couple of things stick out:

There doesn't seem to be a mention of what weights the OP is actually working with. He says he's a late stage novice or maybe early stage intermediate, but from reading this forum for a while, people don't tend to trust such self evaluations. Why here?

Second thing that sticks out is the fact that he's lost 25 lbs lately, plus that he's intending to be very careful about caloric surplus, as he wants to get laid here and there. Is jumping back on the LP bandwagon not an option for this type of scenario?

Third is that he wants to reach 12% bodyfat before adding muscle from there. Depending on his current strength level, isn't the goals of increasing his upper body lifts and reaching 12% bodyfat at the same time conflicting? Doable - perhaps, but hard? Surely.

[Red Finn]

Wouldn't it be relevant to programming advice to know how much the OP is actually benching?

I realize I didn't include numbers. If you want them, here is approximately what I'm capable of right now (well, I have a stomach bug this week, so not right right now):

Bench: 185x5@ RPE 10
Squat: 405x5@ RPE 9/9.5

I just started working my way back after about six months in the wilderness from June through December 2014. I've also gotten sick a couple times this year so far, so it hasn't been very smooth sailing yet.

There doesn't seem to be a mention of what weights the OP is actually working with. He says he's a late stage novice or maybe early stage intermediate, but from reading this forum for a while, people don't tend to trust such self evaluations. Why here?

Well, the truth is that I never actually finished my novice progression when I weighed 205-210 lbs. I was not sleeping well and had some other mental issues hampering me. I got a bit further than the numbers I listed, though.

Given that I weigh 25 lbs less now, I figure my linear progression ceiling is not going to be as high as it was the first time around. Am I sure that I couldn't eke out anything more in my upper body by re-trying linear progression? No. But I'm pretty darn sure.

Third is that he wants to reach 12% bodyfat before adding muscle from there. Depending on his current strength level, isn't the goals of increasing his upper body lifts and reaching 12% bodyfat at the same time conflicting? Doable - perhaps, but hard? Surely.

That's not quite what I said. I want to add muscle and lose fat until I have reached whatever leanness is sustainable. After that, I want to add muscle at the maximum rate possible whilst remaining at about that level of leanness.

I assume it's hard work, of course. But as long as I get the programming and nutrition reasonably well dialed-in, it doesn't sound like it should be out of my grasp.

Jordan is about my height and he got fairly strong as a 181. He says his genetics aren't especially good - he just works hard. Hard and smart.