Bench, Chins, Presses: Carryover and Staying Power

[Gary Gibson]

With the meet kiboshed on account of a snowy act of God--and with my travel plans delayed for a couple of weeks--I decided to train lifts I'd been ignoring.

Blowdpanis' vids inspired me to try my hand at weighted chin ups. I used to be quite obsessed with these and with the one-arm chin up. I even managed a one-arm chin up here and there back when I weighed ~150. But since I've started powerlifting competitively, I've let the chin up slide off my plate.

I've trained weighted chins only very sporadically since 2005. The last time I tried them at all was many months ago. I decided to start with a max test. I ended up getting a not too hard rep with 100 lbs and then failing miserably with 115. Not too shabby. In fact, my chin up strength seems to be exactly where I left it (100 + 165 = 115 +150). I thought it would surely have degraded by now.

I suspect that my bench training has kept all my chin up muscles in shape. The biceps do assist the pecs in shoulder adduction during the bench (and this contribution increases as the grip gets wider and the elbows flare more) while the triceps assist the lats in shoulder extension during chins/pull ups. So there is indeed carryover between the two movements though they exert force in opposite directions.

(As a side note, I also recently tested my strict barbell curl and was able to curl more weight--with no body English--than I ever have before in my life...even though I almost never curl and have only chinned a few times this past year.)

If this is the case, then it's especially frustrating that my (standing) press doesn't correlate with improvements in the bench press. I focus much of my time on the bench press because I have to do it in competition. I've discovered, however, that carryover between the two presses isn't nearly as direct nor does it manifest itself anywhere near immediately. (I've recently added another 10 lbs to my bench and found my standing press has decreased since I last trained it.)

The matter here is that the two presses are more different than they are alike even though they sort of look the same. The bench press relies on a lot of technique--much more than the average trainee realizes--while the standing press requires tremendous torso strength--again, much more than the average trainee realizes. I'd go so far as to say that the standing press is more a torso developer than it is an arm and shoulder developer. Anyone who has achieved great standing press prowess will attest to this; the enormous upper body strength developed by the bench press won't mean a thing in the standing press if the strength of the torso is not sufficient.

[nisora33]

Gary, just read this article recently. Good stuff, should prove to be a lot of help or at least a good departure point for your press musings: http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2009/11...oks-kubik.html

-Stacey

[nisora33]

And a good thread with some great fucking gems over at the P&B forum; serious-minded, hard-training folk over there with a lot of down-to-earth experience: http://powerandbulk.com/phpBB2/viewt...r=asc&start=35

[Mr.City]

Spot on, Gary! I'm learning that the hard way as days when I forget to keep the torso tight or hyper extend my back end with a sore bad and failed sets. Cue the next session where I squeeze as tight as I can, and I find myself thinking, "Boy, that was easy. I can't believe I failed that."

[coldfire]

Gary,

My main focus (in the upper body lifts) is overhead press. You are right that benching doesn't help much, but if you specialize in pressing overhead your bench will stay the same in the worst case, though I think it will improve.

Before I started pressing, I could bench 265lbs x 3. When I started focusing on the press, I dropped the bench and got my overhead press to 220lbs. After that, I tested my bench and still had a pretty easy 265lbs x 3 (maybe more, though I don't remember).

[Gary Gibson]

Gary,

My main focus (in the upper body lifts) is overhead press. You are right that benching doesn't help much, but if you specialize in pressing overhead your bench will stay the same in the worst case, though I think it will improve.

Before I started pressing, I could bench 265kg x 3. When I started focusing on the press, I dropped the bench and got my overhead press to 220lbs. After that, I tested my bench and still had a pretty easy 265kg x 3 (maybe more, though I don't remember).

You bench nearly 600 lbs for reps? <blink blink>

My contention is that bench pressing is superior for the development of upper body pushing strength. The bench press evolved from the "supine" (on the floor) press which was an assistance movement for the standing press. Taking the torso out as the weak link and altering the angle of the push drastically increased the amount of weight to which the lifter could expose his pushing musculature.

Bench presses drive the upper body strength needed for the standing press, but torso strength limits how much of that upper body strength (built by benches) can be used in the standing press.

My pressing power sucks pure and simple. But my experience tells me that two movements overlap a bit, but not all that much. Driving up my (paltry) standing press did nothing for my bench (maybe kept it from deteriorating) and driving up my bench only helps my standing press after I practice the press for a couple of months to get back the necessary torso strength.

[coldfire]

Sorry, that was supposed to be 265lbs. Too tired

[Cmanuel]

obviously it differs person to person, but I seem to get a lot of carryover from standing presses to my bench. I recently benched an easy 286 raw at a USAPL meet earlier this month... This is the same weight that totally crushed me earlier in the year at a push pull. The difference in my training.... 5-3-1 with heavy emphasis on standing presses. My press has gone up significantly, my bench has gone up significantly....hmmmm


But then again I do a lot of wide grip chins (not pull ups) as well.

[zepled37]

And a good thread with some great fucking gems over at the P&B forum; serious-minded, hard-training folk over there with a lot of down-to-earth experience: http://powerandbulk.com/phpBB2/viewt...r=asc&start=35

This is a great thread. Thanks for sharing!