An observation regarding shoes and squats

[nisora33]

When teaching others to squat, I?ve made some observations that I think are worth considering:

As we know, elevated heels get the knees more forward in the squat, which takes a little of the stretch off the hamstrings and adductors in exchange for a little better quad activation off the floor. This allows some people to be able to get their knees out too far (not everyone, of course, but enough of them that I think that it?s worth noting), using the typical squat stance that you recommend in SS.

Two modifications might be considered: one, squat exactly as prescribed in SS, except don?t concentrate on shoving the knees out; and two, widen the stance out just enough that shoving the knees out once again produces the desired hip, knee and foot relationship (proper alignment).

The problem with the former is, as the weight on the bar gets heavy, the knees tend to get squirrelly. Proprioception at the knee and hip just seems poor--that?s the only way I can describe it. I?ve tried it both ways myself and there?s just no substitute for the level of control and tightness at the bottom that you get using what you?ve termed ?active hip.? So I?ve been recommending a little wider stance for my trainees who wear squat shoes, when I see them getting their knees out abnormally wide using the slightly narrower stance.

Just thought I?d share.

-Stacey

[Mark Rippetoe]

Two modifications might be considered: one, squat exactly as prescribed in SS, except don?t concentrate on shoving the knees out; and two, widen the stance out just enough that shoving the knees out once again produces the desired hip, knee and foot relationship (proper alignment).

If you don't shove the knees out, what do you do with them? Hope they just stay in line with the feet? Have you ever seen this happen, especially if you assume a little wider stance?

[nisora33]

At the Amelia Island certification last year, you came by and saw me apparently shoving my knees waaayyyy far the fuck out on my squat, enough that it bothered you, and your instructions were to just sit down into the squat, instead of trying so hard to shove the knees out.

Exhibit A: squatting barefoot (sans heel lift) and using the generally recommended squat stance, I MUST push my knees out or my knees, hips and toes don't all point in the same direction (knees point a little in).

Exhibit B: using that same stance and squatting in my shoes now, I'm capable of pushing my knees out ridiculously wide, so much so that my knees are pointing outward at something like 50 degrees while my feet point out between 30 or 40-ish. I have verified this from multiple angles using video footage and having someone stand there and watch me from different points of view.

In the latter scenario, what's different? The shoes. And what about the shoes makes the difference? The heel lift. The heel lift takes just enough of the stretch off of the adductors by getting the knees more forward that it is then possible for some people to get their knees out too wide, which you've stated is as bad as allowing the knees to cave in, fucking up the alignment between hip, knee and foot.

I would only be suggesting widening the stance by about a half inch to an inch with each foot, nothing major, in cases where someone is capable of getting the knees out too wide. I've seen this enough now that I think its worth noting. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, in the exhibit B scenario I think it is possible for the knees to track properly without consciously and forcefully shoving the knees out, or I wouldn't have brought it up. Because in that scenario, shoving the knees out--for SOME people--places the knees too far out and, therefore, out of alignment. The problem, if you don?t shove your knees out, arises as the weight on the bar gets heavier: the knees start to jump around and wiggle. So widen the feet a little, increase the stretch on the adductors just a little more to compensate for the decreased stretch created by the heel lift, THEN shove the knees out just as you describe.

I?m not disagreeing with you about the knees out: it works--I swear by everything you?ve exposed me too in your seminars and in your books, I just happen to have observations in front of me that suggests that a small but notable subgroup of people, wearing squat shoes, may need a LITTLE wider stance if they want to shove their knees out--which they should definitely want to do because shoving the knees out means you know where your knees are, you know that your adductors are engaged, etc.--and still maintain the proper hip, knee and foot alignment.

Making sense?

[jep6095]

Stacey, with fondness I say, your note reminds me of your platform coaching. Overdone.
Remember at your cert when you came up to your squat platform coach (after the bench press platform) and apologized for making the squat WAY too complicated in your coaching?
She does

Back to basics, back to the book. Heels down.
juli

[JLascek]

I don't see how a person's knees can get "abnormally wide". If that were the case, then the inside portion of the foot would start lifting off the ground, assuming it were easily possibly under a load anyway.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Yes, makes sense, but so does Jules. How high are your heels and how wide are they in your stance, measured between them?