Squat form issue - knee pain/kness traveling forward?

[Carl]

Having some issues with knee pain (both patella and quad tendons it seems) from squatting. Have found some knees traveling forward and tried to correct that. Took a week off from squatting and it was good to go again. However, after the first, not too heavy, sets after the break it returned again.

Grateful if anyone can spot what I'm doing wrong:
http://youtu.be/OWDPqk1NQJs

[BareSteel]

Gee Carl, I see decent squats here, man.

You have a mild tendency to initiate the descent with the knees and it looks like you use a slightly narrower than shoulder width stance from this angle (I could be wrong, angles can deceive).

However, I don't see anything particularly injurious.

[Carl]

BareSteel,
Thanks! You're absolutely right about the stance width. Last time (the coming back session) I actually used a wider stance, but here I saw some more knee action and decided to try with a more narrow approach. Here's an example from that day (sorry, but it's a floor shot video):

http://youtu.be/ZBDU9-Pdyp4

My pain issues started after I decided to buy a pair of weightlifting shoes. Before that I lifted in flat barefoot running shoes, but had trouble attaining proper depth. Looking back at videos from that time I can see that I had the knee dropout issue already then. I just wasn't punished for it though!

[BareSteel]

Yeah, definitely hard to make a fair comparison with the low angle of that footage. I am surprised to hear that your pain correlates with the footwear change. Normally they facilitate better squatting.

The only way to verify that the knee pain was caused by the oly shoes' heel would be to go back to flats for a while and see if it subsides. If it does, there's your easy solution - and it only cost you one pair of oly shoes to get to the bottom of it. Chucks are pretty cheap and have less squish than a running shoe. Give it a shot.

I would like to add that I don't see the problem we refer to as knee slide. Knee slide happens when lifters relax at the bottom, and the knees move forward at the lowest part of the range of motion. Your knees appear to be set correctly. Hopefully it's just a shoe issue.

[Carl]

I was leaning towards this solution, but figured as you that the shoes would improve my technique, and was therefore sure that I had some major form fuck-up. I'll go back to my old shoes after the knees heel out once more.
Regarding the knee sliding forward in the latter video, I thought there was some jerking of the knee at the bottom in lift 2,4 and 5.

Thanks a lot for your help, and your tip about using chucks!

[BareSteel]

Roger that. I see a hair of knee slide on rep 5, but that's being very picky. I would not pin these as dangerous squats.

If you like the lateral support that your Adidas shoes provide, you can get the heel removed by a skilled cobbler as Jordan describes somewhere in this video: Weightlifting Shoes Part 1. Then they'll basically be firm, supportive flats. Only if you're 100% sure you don't want to squat with a heel though and you tried with your old squat shoes first to verify that the pain goes away.

[Gunnhild Bruno]

Hard to tell from the angle, but your stance may be a bit too narrow. Try opening it up an inch or so on each side. Also, you may not need to turn your toes out that much. From the clip, it looks like you're turning them out almost 45 degrees. If so, bring the toes in a little bit.

Also, this may be a case of needing to eat more.

[Carl]

Yeah, I probably overdo the feet angle. I'll bring my toes in, widen the stance and try with my old shoes. Removing the sole might be a good idea, but will probably cost me more than buying the other adidas powerlifting shoes with a lower heel (15mm instead of 22mm).

I know I'm quite skinny, but the fastest growing part of my body is the energy reserve atop of my abs. I'm at 93kg/187cm. Once I can get going with my squats I'll start increasing my caloric intake again.

Big thanks to both of you for your input!

[BareSteel]

Removing the sole might be a good idea, but will probably cost me more than buying the other adidas powerlifting shoes with a lower heel (15mm instead of 22mm)... Big thanks to both of you for your input!

Probably just a semantic error, but to clarify: The cobbler would have to physically remove the outer sole, remove the block of wood at the heel, then re-glue the sole (maybe a new sole if the first one wasn't carefully removed). Note that certain models of shoes have a plastic polymer for the heel, so these tips wouldn't work. If I recall correctly, it cost me $50 to have my .75" Do-win heels shaven down a bit and have a few other touch-ups done - all by a cobbler I really trust.

Glad to help, Carl.

[David A. Rowe]

Amateur opinion:
You seem to be losing tension in your frontal abdominals as you begin the movement. This is causing anterior pelvic rotation as your spinal erectors win the fight. I am trying to find a good cue or method to reinforce this. Would be nice if a coach could provide input on this as I am trying to learn how to fix my wife's form (same problem).

My initial thoughts:
1. Lift with a belt (outer resistance should provide a stronger isometric contraction of the transverse and frontal abdominals).
2. Change your cue. Maybe something like "iron back" or "straight back" to visualize keeping your pelvis neutrally tilted in relation to your upper body/spin.
3. Possibly doing strength work (weighted sit ups?) to nail the frontal abs and catch them up with your spinal erectors.