combining strength lifts and olympic lifts

[poplawsj]

any one want to through their 2 cents in?

I just joined an olympic lifting club/team in baltimore. I have no experience with the OL's but they are a great group and the coach's seem awsome. They got me up to a 90kg C&J and a 80kg Snatch my first training day.

There advice is to Squat, snatch and C&J every day, drop DL drop Pressing and Drop pritty much everything else. Well that's just not gonna work for me right now. I have no desire to compete right now, I just want to learn how to do the competition lifts and eventually incorporate them into my regular program. Basically get stronger in the DL, Press, Chin-up, Dip, Squat, C&J and Snatch.

My thoughts are:

1. I need to practice the OL alot to get the motor patterns down. As many singles and doubles as i can do in a week.
2. the club meets for coaching on saturdays, so saturdays are locked in every week as one of my OL training days
3. I never built up a good work capacity, so initially doing more than four workouts a week would probably burn me out, which means 2 OL days and 1 or 2 Strength lift days
4. I want to be well rested for saturdays as i'll be working up in weight on saturdays to try and get a new pr

with that in mind:
Su: off
Mon: Snatch & C&J @ 70 - 85% of saturdays max for singles or doubles, Back Squat w/ 5/3/1 protocal
Tues: off
*Wen: Deadlift, Press, Chin-up following 5/3/1 protocals (it's what i'm familiar with)
Thu: off
Friday: off
Sat: Practice with the team Snatch & C&J work up to new max, front squat at 110% of max clean

I'd still be doing all but the bench once a week like in 5/3/1. I'm considering weather or not i should alternate weeks of DL and no DL or if i should just go straight with the 5/3/1 protocal. I'm a little concerned about doing the protocal with three exercises in the same day.

I looked on the board and found this thread:
http://startingstrength.com/resource...lympic+lifting

what i'm doing seems pritty in line with what mark's advising. what do you guys think? there was another option i was looking at with 2 OL days and 1 upper body strength day and 1 lower body strength day.

[Patrick Stroup]

You could totally get away with 4 or even 5 days.

With the deadlift I wouldnt worry your squat and olympic pulling will drive it up. So I would pull every other week alternate it with something like RDLs or Rows.

You can also bench and press once a week I would probably toss in some BTN Jerks or some variation of a jerk also.

[DGA]

I think your program looks OK.

Only one day per week of strength work is not optimal for strength gains, but if you have to prioritize technique over strength thats your call. Along the same line, back squatting more than once a week may be better. If you are a beginner then anything you do will make you stronger. I am on a program right now that has two strength days and one OL day. Saturday is also my heavy O-lifts and front squat day. However, my program is definitely not optimal and two days of the O-lifts is a good idea.

If work capacity is a problem, then you could add light days and gradually increase the intensity of those days. The utility of strength lifts like the press and DL for increasing the O-lifts is a point of contention among some coaches, but my experience suggests that they are very beneficial.

Another way to progress the DL is to alternate two intensity levels every week, for example week 1: 5RM, week 2: 3 RM. I think that method is mentioned by Justin on 70sbig.com. I haven't tried this, but it sounds like a good idea.

Training strength lifts in the same program as the olympic lifts should not be a problem. I also agree with Patrick that more days, and including the bench AND the press in a week is a good idea.

Are you familiar with the novice OL program that Justin Lascek put together? Rip likes it also and it goes something like this:

Day 1: heavy SN, light C&J
Day 2: squats, press, chin-ups
Day 3: light SN, heavy C&J
Day 4: squats, bench, DL

Here's a link: http://www.70sbig.com/?p=1315

That program could be tweaked to your schedule if you wanted.

Congratulations on establishing new PRs for the SN and the C&J. Not too shabby for your first time.

[poplawsj]

I think your program looks OK.

Only one day per week of strength work is not optimal for strength gains, but if you have to prioritize technique over strength thats your call. Along the same line, back squatting more than once a week may be better. If you are a beginner then anything you do will make you stronger. I am on a program right now that has two strength days and one OL day. Saturday is also my heavy O-lifts and front squat day. However, my program is definitely not optimal and two days of the O-lifts is a good idea.

If work capacity is a problem, then you could add light days and gradually increase the intensity of those days. The utility of strength lifts like the press and DL for increasing the O-lifts is a point of contention among some coaches, but my experience suggests that they are very beneficial.

Another way to progress the DL is to alternate two intensity levels every week, for example week 1: 5RM, week 2: 3 RM. I think that method is mentioned by Justin on 70sbig.com. I haven't tried this, but it sounds like a good idea.

Training strength lifts in the same program as the olympic lifts should not be a problem. I also agree with Patrick that more days, and including the bench AND the press in a week is a good idea.

Are you familiar with the novice OL program that Justin Lascek put together? Rip likes it also and it goes something like this:

Day 1: heavy SN, light C&J
Day 2: squats, press, chin-ups
Day 3: light SN, heavy C&J
Day 4: squats, bench, DL

Here's a link: http://www.70sbig.com/?p=1315

That program could be tweaked to your schedule if you wanted.

Congratulations on establishing new PRs for the SN and the C&J. Not too shabby for your first time.

I'm not realy a novice as far as the strength lifts go. Mark has told me he would consider me advanced. I figure i can progress as a novice on the OL to a point b/c really the weight isn't heavy yet. when it gets heavy i'll probably do somthing like:

day 1: Snatch, Squat
day 2: C&J, DL
day 3: Press
day 4: Chinup

I like the set up you showed me, my only concer with it is that on saturdays when the team works out i'll be trying to max on my snatch and C&J at first till i reach the point where it's not a technique thing but a get stronger at the lifts thing. another reason i'm reluctant to train more than 4 days a week is just the time i have available in my personal life with work and family. If i had plans to get competative things would be different. thoughts?

[poplawsj]

An intermediate will have particular recovery limitations that others may not have, and this must be accounted for. As of right now, I do not think there is any good way to efficiently increase strength while getting adequate practice in the Olympic lifts. Increasing the back squat, press, bench press, and deadlift are going to help the Olympic lifts go up, but those “slower lifts” will not increase as fast if the Olympic lifts are practiced adequately during the week (adequate probably means at least twice a week). In comparison, when the focus is to increase those “slower lifts”, you cannot adequately put enough time into getting that “adequate practice” in the snatch and clean & jerk since recovery is a finite thing. This means that you either have to cycle the emphasis on a regular basis or strength train until x weeks out from the meet.


Tommy Suggs used to do the latter, according to an old article written by Bill Starr. He would get strong in training, and then six weeks out from a competition he would get back into doing the lifts and refining his technique. The method seemed to have been useful for him.

so i guess that means since right now i'm learning the technique the reality is maintain my strength level untill i get to a point where technique is solid then alternate period of getting strong and refining technique?

[DGA]

Sorry to give you "newbie" advice when you are an advanced lifter. Being a novice on the O-lifts and advanced in the strength lifts is certainly an interesting programming dilemma. Progressing the O-lifts on Saturday until they catch up with your other lifts will probably work pretty well for awhile. Given your time constraints, an abbreviated program like the one you outlined sounds like a good idea.

Alternating periods of emphasis between the more technical SN/C&J and the strength lifts (i.e. periodization) may work better in the long term for a more advanced lifter.

After your linear progression with the O-lifts is over, I think you have some good options for combining strength and technical work in a simple fashion. Once your O-lifts have progressed to a more advanced or intermediate stage, an abbreviated program like this might work:

Week 1
Day 1: SN (heavy), squat
Day 2: C&J (heavy), press
Day 3: SN (light), DL

Week 2
Day 1: C&J (heavy), squat
Day 2: SN (heavy), press
Day 3: C&J (light), DL

Pull-ups could be added as a fourth day or with one of the other work-outs. After your O-lifts have been progressing for awhile, front squats may also become important. You could alternate these with squat or DLs, add them as a fourth day (maybe with pull-ups), or could even replace the light SN/C&J with them. This program is just a thought. I've never run a program like this, and I don't know that much about you, so I don't know how it would work for you or your schedule. Regardless, good luck progressing the lifts. Keep us posted on your progress and your programming.

[poplawsj]

Thank you. I will continue to update this post with what i find as i implement these ideas. I would greatly apreciate the continued thoughts of every one as this continues.

[DGA]

poplawsj,

Just out of curiosity, as an advanced lifter, how have you been programming the strength lifts (squat, DL, PC, press, bench, pull-ups, etc) for the last couple years?

[Greg C]

read this.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...2395951&page=2

[Dastardly]

Why not just do what yor "awesome" coaches tell you to do?