Can't supplement with protein powders

[David1982]

For some reason I can't sleep when I consume Whey protein. I researched online and found that some other people have had similar problems with it. Someone suggested it may have something to do with high levels of 'Glutamic acid' in your system, but I have no idea if that makes any sense or not. I don't know if Casein would have the same effect, I'll have to try it out.

But for now, I'm having to get all protein from whole foods, and I'm on a tight budget so I'm opting for the cheapest sources of protein I can find. Just wondered if you could tell me how good/bad my daily food looks...

10 eggs
400g minced beef
2 tins tuna
300g cottage cheese

325g rice
3 pieces fruit

210g protein
260g carbs
150g fat (approx)

I'm 31, novice, 25% bodyfat, been on SS seriously for 1 month after months of messing around and not being consistent.

Thanks

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

How much do you weigh? Where you doing whey protein concentrate when supplementing? How much glutamine was in the protein supplement? The protein sources look fine, but chicken is pretty cheap too. Buying in bulk helps as well.

[mkporter]

I noticed the other day that precooked frozen chicken breasts are a pretty cheap way to get some good protein. ~$2.50/lbs IIRC. Maybe less at wal-mart or costco. Probably will pick some up next time I need to stock up.

[David1982]

How much do you weigh? Where you doing whey protein concentrate when supplementing? How much glutamine was in the protein supplement? The protein sources look fine, but chicken is pretty cheap too. Buying in bulk helps as well.

I weigh 210 lbs at 5'8. It's whey isolate, 94% protein, 18.1% glutamic acid. I bought the whey in bulk at a good price, but now i can't take it im stuck with 20kg of the stuff! i tried casein and it didn't cause any problems. i was thinking that maybe if i had some whey mixed with the casein once a day it might slow down the digestion of the whey and might possibly not cause me any sleep problems. Eating all whole food is tough. Is casein OK to take throughout the day, or best before bed?

Thanks for your help

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Yes, casein is fine throughout the day. You could also see if you could cut it 50/50 with whey just so you don't waste 20kg of the stuff. I'd be willing to bet a lot of your issues are not related to that amount of glutamic acid though.

[David1982]

Yes, casein is fine throughout the day. You could also see if you could cut it 50/50 with whey just so you don't waste 20kg of the stuff. I'd be willing to bet a lot of your issues are related to that amount of glutamine though.

The Casein has 20% Glutamic acid, but causes no problems, so I'm guessing it's also to do with how fast it's digested. I'll try the 50/50 mix and see. Thanks for your help.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

IIRC glutamic acid is just a food flavoring thing and doesn't do much to increase blood glutamate levels or cause ill effects in adults. 18.1 to 20% is not a huge difference if the servings size is similar but who knows, maybe there is a big difference.

[Adam Skillin]

Jordan, can you clarify the difference between a few terms? 1. Glutamic Acid, 2. Free Glutamic Acid, 3. Monosodium Glutamate?

I've seen it claimed on some of the Paleo forums that 2 & 3 are the same, but I don't know if it's true. And I understand the difference between triglycerides and free fatty acids, but don't understand whether a similar distinction exists for glutamic acid. I do know that certain high-MSG foods will absolutely RUIN a night of sleep for me (Pork roll for dinner is a huge no-no).

Sorry if this is a threadjack or a question that's so obvious I should be able to Google it myself. Doing so results in a little too much chaff and not much identifiable wheat. (Which I don't eat anyway, because I'm Paleo).

Thanks for any insight.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Basically, glutamic acid is the bound form of glutamine in natural proteins (plants, grains, animals) that is bound and is known as "L-glutamic acid" IIRC. When the proteins of a food are digested, hydrolyzed, and otherwise broken down into free amino acids some of this glutamic acid becomes unbound some of it gets absorbed as the L form of glutamic acid even though it is no longer bound, some of it will get converted (via transamination) to either glutamine (nitrogen metabolism and certain tissue's energy substrate) or alpha-ketoglutarate (to enter the kreb's cycle) and the rest of the free L-glutamic acid is excreted.

MSG on the other hand, is D-Glutamic acid (along with other isomers and chemical intermediates) and is unbound or free form glutamic acid. It appears that either potentially more of this gets absorbed per unit time than protein-containing foods' L form OR that their is some sort of competitive inhibition for absorption/more transamination due to the increased load of overall amino acids in a protein containing meal with the L form.

The jury is still out on whether the D form or L form, when free form, can spike serum concentration of glutamate or other neuroexcitatory intermediates/metabolites to a significant level to disrupt normal physiology.

[Adam Skillin]

Basically, glutamic acid is the bound form of glutamine in natural proteins (plants, grains, animals) that is bound and is known as "L-glutamic acid" IIRC. When the proteins of a food are digested, hydrolyzed, and otherwise broken down into free amino acids some of this glutamic acid becomes unbound some of it gets absorbed as the L form of glutamic acid even though it is no longer bound, some of it will get converted (via transamination) to either glutamine (nitrogen metabolism and certain tissue's energy substrate) or alpha-ketoglutarate (to enter the kreb's cycle) and the rest of the free L-glutamic acid is excreted.

MSG on the other hand, is D-Glutamic acid (along with other isomers and chemical intermediates) and is unbound or free form glutamic acid. It appears that either potentially more of this gets absorbed per unit time than protein-containing foods' L form OR that their is some sort of competitive inhibition for absorption/more transamination due to the increased load of overall amino acids in a protein containing meal with the L form.

The jury is still out on whether the D form or L form, when free form, can spike serum concentration of glutamate or other neuroexcitatory intermediates/metabolites to a significant level to disrupt normal physiology.

Oddly enough, I think I understand most of that. Thanks!