Transition from Novice to Advanced Novice

[Mr_Rogers]

I didn't want to take this thread off topic, but I'm in a similar situation.


I made the mistake of starting SL 5x5 back in early November (I weighed about 143, I'm 5'10) after a few weeks I slapped myself and switched to SS and got the book at Christmas.

Current weight is hovering between 155lbs and 160lbs (@ 17-19% BF according to the scale) and I'm 30 years old. I don't count calories, but I've come to the realization that I'm not eating enough as weight gain has kind of stalled, which I'm currently addressing (read as eating more). I've been making progress ever since I started SS, but my current stats are:

Squat - 205 lbs (missed reps on 2 consecutive workouts, form issues I think, got it on 3rd workout)
Press - 82.5 lbs (reset after 3 fails at 95, form issues)
Bench Press - 155lbs
Deadlift - 255lbs
Power Clean - 115lbs

I'm currently doing:

A
Squat
Press
Deadlift
Pull-ups
Dips

B
Squat
Bench Press
Power Cleans
Chin-ups
Dips

In the Programming chapter in the book Mark mentions adding chins/back extensions. While I'm still progressing, it has slowed. Should I consider something like this, which is what I assume people call Advanced Novice?

A
Squat
Press
Deadlift/Power Clean


B
Squat
Bench Press
Back extension
Chin-ups/Pull-ups

I train at home so back extensions are a bit of a challenge, but nothing a loaded bar and a saw horse can't solve.

The last day I trained was last Wednesday (I was doing Saturday, Monday, Wednesday), but I'm switching to MWF so my weekends are free. Second question I have I have is, should I stick with LP or should I do my last workout weight?

[Michael Park]

The Advanced Novice template is discussed on pages 110-111 of Practical Programming 2nd Edition. It looks like you are referring to the program in Starting Strength. Advanced Novice just means to have a light squat day on Wednesday or whatever your midweek training day is. You would squat three sets of five at 80% of your Monday weight. This gives your squat a little more time to recover. You would generally start doing this after you have to reset your squat once.

I think your problem is not your programming, but your eating. Start counting calories to ensure you are getting enough. Eat significantly more. I'm 5'7", and I weighed 180.5 lbs this morning. I'm not fat, and I'm still continuing novice linear progression. Throw away the body fat analyzer scale. They are junk. Eat a lot more. If you eat 6000 calories a day and at least 200 grams of protein a day, I think you'll find that you can progress for quite some time. Of course, drinking a gallon of milk a day makes this significantly easier.

[Corrie]

I think your problem is not your programming, but your eating. Start counting calories to ensure you are getting enough. Eat significantly more. I'm 5'7", and I weighed 180.5 lbs this morning. I'm not fat, and I'm still continuing novice linear progression. Throw away the body fat analyzer scale. They are junk. Eat a lot more. If you eat 6000 calories a day and at least 200 grams of protein a day, I think you'll find that you can progress for quite some time. Of course, drinking a gallon of milk a day makes this significantly easier.

I agree on the eating. At his height he has lots of room to grow.

That being said, I wouldn't touch 6000 cals with a ten foot pole, at least not at first. I'd ease into it, see how your body reacts to more calories and take it from there. Try to keep your lifts going up as well as your body weight and try to find a good amount of weight gain you can handle without getting fat.

To the OP. There are three real reasons a newbie stalls so early in the program. Not recovering (eating + rest), limitations due to form or a lack of willpower.
I think you have the willpower and you seem to working at your form, so the only real problem I'm seeing is that you need to be eating more.

[strong_over_matter]

I think that the program you are considering switching to makes better sense for you (but note the other comments of the actual meaning of the advanced novice with the light squat day). So to be clear, I don't think that you need a light squat day.

The biggest issue I see is doing the dips every workout. Dips are a great accessory exercise when they are called for, but right now you should be concerned about making progress on bench and press. If you dip every workout, it's possible you are hurting your recovery for the next bench or press session. Also, pull-up and chins every workout can make sense if you can only get five singes for example, but if you are getting 5-10 for 3 sets these also might be compromising your abilty to recover.

As others said, make sure you know how much you are eating. If it's not enough, add more food over a few weeks.

Lastly, and this is especially true for the squats, make sure you rest long enough between sets. If you need 6-8 minutes, take it.

[Mr_Rogers]

I pulled this from page 296/297 of the 3rd edition. I've done the below since I got the book, I was doing rows instead of power cleans for the first month and a half.

A
Squat
Press
Deadlift


B
Squat
Bench Press
Power Clean

I then added chin-ups at the end of every workout as per the book. I decided to throw in dips too because I shamelessly love them and the wife bought me a dip station for Christmas, but now realize they could be hurting.

It then suggests doing GHR's or back extensions and chin-ups instead of pulling every workout to get:

A
Squat
Press
Deadlift/Power Clean


B
Squat
Bench Press
Back extension
Chin-ups/Pull-ups

I was under the impression I'd still be trying to progress without the need for a light squat day. I apologize for the incorrect usage of advanced novice...Mark even wrote that the above is still the "novice phase" *insert face-palm here* He did say that the above would allow for more recovery time between pulls, should recovery be an issue.

I'm able to get usually 13, 10, 8 bw chin-ups/pull-ups/dips if I do three sets so I've been messing around LP on those and restricting reps to 5.


edit:

I'll stick with the novice program (thanks for the clarification), up the food and monitor progression from there.

@ Corrie: I'm more concerned with form than anything else...It's slightly disheartening to think I've wasted the last 10 years training with incorrect form on every lift except dips and chins.

I packed more food today to eat at work than I normally do and I'll continue to make the conscious effort to eat more and hopefully that translates to my lifts

Thanks for help everyone.

[Mr_Rogers]

I've counted the calories, protein and carbs from my meals today and yesterday and man was I surprised. I even upped it more than I was eating, but that turned out to only be 340 calories ( 9g of protein and 37g of carbs 1 hour before my workout).

2700ish calories, 160g of protein and 318g of carbs (with a majority of the carbs spread from 7:30 to 3:30). Obviously I'm going to increase calories and I've seen some good examples in another thread, but colour me shocked. I already get mocked at work for stuffing the fridge full of food, maybe I'll ask for a dedicated fridge in the new fiscal year.

[tfarny]

Make a shake with some combination of whole milk, heavy cream, coconut milk, whey powder, and whatever flavors you like chocolate plus a banana, etc. A pint of such a concoction can have 800-1000 calories and can be drunk as a dessert before bed.

[DV]

You've read the Dave Tate article that was discussed recently, right? Not that I think you should eat a pizza doused with olive oil every day, but to give you an idea of the mindset. Eating to gain muscle is HARD. Especially for guys like you, who come from being very skinny. I agree that you shouldn't jump STRAIGHT in to 6.000 kcals, but I would definitely build it up. Lots of rice/paste and lots of meat/eggs whenever you can stand it. And add some milk to that, if the scale/lifts aren't moving. I also used junk (burgers,pizza etc.) to good effect to get just a bit of muscle on me.

What guys at the office think is "a lot" of food, is probably about half of what you should be eating. I'm still getting flak for my "huge" lunches, and I eat 6 times a day + I'm losing weight!

So don't compare yourself to those guys, you're a lifter now, and eating is a completely different ballgame.

[Mr_Rogers]

Math fail on my part. I forgot to count the second shake (almond milk because I'm lactose intolerant, banana, flax seed, peanut butter, chocolate chips and whey protein). That bumps calories up to 3400+, protein up to 195 and carbs up to close to 400. The 3400 is roughly 500 more than I was getting on a daily basis. I've had much more energy the last few days and the next day "aches" are pretty much non-existent. I figure an additional 500 is a good starting point and will allow me to adjust to more food.

@ Danish Viking: That thread made me realize what I thought was a lot wasn't, so I counted everything which really put things in perspective. There's a reason you guys are 200+lbs and have doubled all my lifts.

Thanks for the tips.

[mwhities]

Keep it up. I'm fat already but, I'm still eating a lot (maybe to much) but, my goal right now (changes daily it seems) is to get strong as hell. Yes, I'm gaining fat too but, I'll worry about dropping the weight later.

I'm de-loading maybe this Friday, not sure after the 305lbs if I want to go to 315lbs. I might go to 310. After the de-load, I may consider going to advanced novice. That's why I have been watching this thread.

So thanks for starting/asking it.