Why is chin/pull-up on pulldown machine inferior to normal chin?

[ludwig23]

I'm genuinely curious as to why. Here are my reasons:

1) On pulldown machine, you can set the weight. On a plate-loaded pulldown machine, it's even better.

2) With normal chin, unless you can chin your bodyweight, you have no way to do a full ROM. Jumping up to get negative part until you can is fine, but isn't a full ROM better?

3) It begs the question of most novices training progress: how many novices can correctly bang out 3 set of 5 or 8 chins, let alone adding weights? Esp. for the obese.

In a way similar to that of the leg press, esp. for plate-loaded pulldown machine, the pulldown machine is legit, because it gets people strong enough to handle their bodyweight.

5) If you use the "whole body moving and therefore you work all the muscle" reason, I'm curious as to why you don't work your abs and lower body with a pulldown machine. There's just no fucking way of flapping your legs around if you do them heavy enough.

6) Your bodyweight varies between days making it harder to quantify the work you did on a given day. Harder if you were to quantify progress after months or years of training. For example: I can chin 15+ when I was 30lbs lighter than I am now, and I can chin 4 or 5 with 22 lbs attached to my belt. Now that I am 30lbs heavier, last I checked I can only give 5-6 reps.


My conclusion:
Therefore the pulldown machine is legit, at least until someone can pull a set of 8 at a weight around 85% of their BW.

Thanks.

[dhalli]

#6: Damn straight it varies. My weight is up/down 5lb at any given time... sometimes more.

And I could do a few sets of 15+ chins or pull-ups at any given time, before SS... I didn't quite keep up with doing 'em, now I can do 6 on a good day, 4 on a bad day. I'm also 35lb heavier. Wait. Maybe I'm 40lb heavier right now... ate a big ass dinner (no joke; ate enough sushi to feed a small village)

[Satch12879]

I'm genuinely curious as to why. Here are my reasons:

1) On pulldown machine, you can set the weight. On a plate-loaded pulldown machine, it's even better.

Have you seen one where you can incrementally load them for less than say 10 lbs?

2) With normal chin, unless you can chin your bodyweight, you have no way to do a full ROM. Jumping up to get negative part until you can is fine, but isn't a full ROM better?

You've heard of doing chins/pulls with straps/bands, right? Like in that book everyone around here talks about.

3) It begs the question of most novices training progress: how many novices can correctly bang out 3 set of 5 or 8 chins, let alone adding weights? Esp. for the obese.

The obese, obviously, can't. The young and light maybe can. As well as those with some inherant or developed upper body strength due to participation in youth/adolescent sports. But if you can't there are ways to develop your strength. Also, you're using "begging the question" incorrectly.

In a way similar to that of the leg press, esp. for plate-loaded pulldown machine, the pulldown machine is legit, because it gets people strong enough to handle their bodyweight.

Except the leg press machine can be incrementally loaded.

5) If you use the "whole body moving and therefore you work all the muscle" reason, I'm curious as to why you don't work your abs and lower body with a pulldown machine. There's just no fucking way of flapping your legs around if you do them heavy enough.

Well, you're sitting down when you use the pulldown machine, so a whole lot of stabilization is not needed. But, still, do you really not use your trunk at all when you're using the pulldown machine?

6) Your bodyweight varies between days making it harder to quantify the work you did on a given day. Harder if you were to quantify progress after months or years of training. For example: I can chin 15+ when I was 30lbs lighter than I am now, and I can chin 4 or 5 with 22 lbs attached to my belt. Now that I am 30lbs heavier, last I checked I can only give 5-6 reps.

It takes more than "varies between days" to see a 30 lbs variation in body weight. Day to day fluctuations are marginal.

My conclusion:
Therefore the pulldown machine is legit, at least until someone can pull a set of 8 at a weight around 85% of their BW.

Thanks.

Yes, perhaps, but not for ANY of the "arguments" you've put forth. Logic is hard; keep working on it.

[Hydro]

Ludwig, you've been doing machine pull-downs for quite a few months. How many chins can you do now?

[Chebass88]

... My conclusion:
Therefore the pulldown machine is legit, at least until someone can pull a set of 8 at a weight around 85% of their BW. Thanks.

I concur that the pulldown machine is legit - exactly when to switch over to chin-ups/pullups doesn't have to be fixed, IMO. If we stick with the notion that the pullup / chinup is an accessory exercise, doing sets of 8-12 work well. However this gets done doesn't really matter, provided there is progression over time.

The assisted pullup machine is another pretty good option, if your gym has one. If you can get 8-12 solid reps, with a decrease in assisted weight over time, you are getting stronger. Everyone likes to recommend bands around here, which might also work (I can't speak to them personally, as I haven't used them). I think this is nothing more than a "We don't use any machines, so we're better" shtick. I used the assisted pullup machine for months before I was able to get a proper chinup.

Regarding 10lb jumps for the lat pulldown machine. Just go for more reps, and once you get a certain amount, move the pin to the next weight. Pretty simple. The pullup / chinup / lat pulldown / banded pullup / assisted pullup machine is an secondary (or even tertiary) exercise to help build the grip and some upper & mid back strength. Do a set until you can't do any more. Strive to add a rep or two each session. Increase the weight (or decrease the assistance if using machine or bands) once you've reached X number of reps. When to increase really doesn't matter either - it could be 8, 12, or even 20 reps, as long as you're consistent.

[Cody]

Heavy lat-pulldowns with a v-grip have improved my chins and deadlifts better than chins have. When I was chinning regularly, sets of 4-5 were hard. After doing these pulldowns for ~8 weeks (would have to check my log), I can bang out multiple sets of 8-10 chins with ease. The bar in deadlifts isn't wanting to windmill anymore, either. The lat-pulldown has a better focus on the lats for me than chins do (go figure), which makes them a better option if you want to focus on that.

[lou t]

both lifts have value. The difference is a bit obvious, lat pull downs your arms are pulling the weight down and doesn't require you to engage your core as pull ups or chin ups do to prevent swaying. Chins/pull ups require you to pull your body up. So in my mind, for strength and more muscle recruitment I prefer chins or pull ups. Having said that, during a 12 week cycle I will do one or the other depending on the week.

[John Hanley]

Chins are my favorite "core" excercise. You need to brace pretty hard to prevent lumbar hyper-extension.

Note: Most peeps do chins incorrectly & hang in hyperextension.

[Nick Klemetson]

Have you seen one where you can incrementally load them for less than say 10 lbs?

I have. A lot of gyms have various sized rubber inserts for the tops of the weight stack like this... Amazon.com : Weight Stack Adapter Plates 2.5 Lb & 5Lb : Sports & Outdoors

... or they just have weighted magnets that stick to the side of the stack.

[Satch12879]

... or they just have weighted magnets that stick to the side of the stack.

I've heard of that gym...