DL Form Check

[ineddywetrust]

Finally got a chance to record my DL so any coaching here would be greatly appreciated.

First recording was my second set out of three. I checked the video after the lift and it seemed to me that my lower back wasn't set correctly so I tried working on that in my third set.


http://youtu.be/e5UfY94LDZI

My third set is split into two videos because my phone fell during the first rep. In this set I think I lowered my hips a little after bringing my shins to the bar, I tried this to see if my lower back would be set up tighter. I'm not sure if it worked. And I might actually be overextending similar to how I was when squatting last month? That is something I'd definitely like to have some coaching on.


http://youtu.be/1ziDEskk0Dc


http://youtu.be/2Ybp81XiCHo

Overall, I think my lower back is getting unset immediately before the lift. My form is completely fucked with the 4" Inzer so I'm wondering if I should get a 2.5" belt for DL'ing? I'm 5'7" and if a belt will help with form and back safety I'll definitely get one.

Here's link to my squat form check thread:
http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=40289

[Milo's Ghost]

Yeah, these are all over the place. You do different things wrong nearly every rep. I get where you're at - you're frustrated, nothing is locked in, and you're casting about for a form that will feel solid. But this is not the way to get there.

1) 1x5 on deads. Sets across are unnecessary and may well beat you up too much.
2) No belt at 215. It's going to make it harder to get into the proper position and it's another thing to futz with/think about when you really need to focus on the basics of the lift.
3) Do you have a belt on under your shirt? Your lower back looks very round to me, but it might be the belt. If it's not, we have se work to do there.
4) The larger problem is that you're not consistent. I can't really tell you what to fix because you do something different each rep. I'm not trying to be a dick, but to be helpful, here's what I'd suggest: take 30 lbs. off the bar. Re-read the deadlift chapter in the book, and then go in and try to replicate that technique as best you can. But most importantly, do the same thing each time. If it's not right, at least it'll be consistent. Video your work set and post it here, and then we'll work on taking that consistent setup and making it correct as well.

Ya dig?

[ineddywetrust]

That's kinda not want I wanted to hear, Milo's Ghost... I'm actually not frustrated with deads and I thought that maybe a few things were wrong but not that I needed a deload but I'll do whatever's necessary to get it right. I'm hoping you'll at least hear me out here? I basically try to run through the list before every set and I'll write it down here from memory:

I'll set up with the bar over the middle of my feet, I've been rotating my feet out to check that it's over the middle. Usually, I got them about a foot apart with about a 10 degree angle. Get my hook grip set. Bring my shins to the bar, deep breath, vasalva, then raise chest and tighten my back up. Ill try to do all this without moving the bar. When I tighten my back up I'll especially tighten up my lats and start pulling the bar against my shins. Then with everything tight I try to push against the ground with my feet and drag the bar against my legs. At this point I think I might get inconsistent because sometimes I feel I might push back a bit and other times it might be a straight push down. I also know I was inconsistent between the second and third sets with lowering my hips in the third set but that was just trying to see if my lower back looked tighter which I kinda want to say it didnt.

I'm not wearing a belt under my shirt. The reason why I asked about the belt is because it has helped my squat a shitton and I don't feel any back pain whatsoever after a heavy squat set. My deads have been causing a bit of pain so I'm wondering if a belt will help my deads as much as it helped my squat. I'd love to get to the point that other posters have gotten to on this board where they have no back pain whatsoever.

I'll deload next week and just be strict as fuck to the list and repost a video. Thanks for checking this out and for the advice, man. I didn't think you were being a dick at all either. I honestly don't understand how you guys are so patient with some of the form checks here.

[Milo's Ghost]

No, that was not a particularly helpful critique on my part. 'These are wrong; start over' is just lazy. Apologies.

Your lower back definitely rounds a lot. It doesn't really ever get set, except in maybe one or two reps. Do you have good lower back control? You may want to watch the lower back control video on here. I have a feeling this might be an issue for you, because you lower back starts round and stays that way for most of the reps.

Now ... Let's go through this. Because while my last post was not *helpful*, it was at least *correct*.

First vid: You're back on your heels. You're pulling back instead of straight up. Notice how the bar does not go up in a straight line. You're able to do this because you raise your hips before you start the pull. This takes the quads out of the movement because they've already extended the knee before the bar has moved. See how horizontal your back is before the ball actually leaves the ground? As the set progresses, you're a bit less back on your heels but the early knee extension/hips rising problem gets worse.

Second vid: You can really see it here. Look how much you move before the bar ever leaves the ground. You also push the bar an inch forward of midfoot when you bend your knees - this is a new problem.

Third vid: These are actually your best. But you're moving the bar around on the ground. I can't see your feet but it's possible you're lining up with the bar not over the midfoot. At any rate, it's not consistent - it's moving around on too many of the reps.

Other issues: look 12-15' in front of you (or the equivalent since you're staring at a wall) and fix your head there. It's moves around way too much. In general there's too much movement - your setup isn't consistent and you futz around too much in general.

Do another set (just one), lighter, and really focus on four things:

1) Bar over midfoot. Then it DOES NOT MOVE.
2) Push straight down through the floor. Don't think 'back.' Make sure your weight is over your whole foot.
3) Less movement. Do each step and then don't move. Don't let your hips rise first, don't rock back and forth with the bar on the ground, and don't move your head up and down. You need quiet mechanics here.
4) Your low back. Watch the video, do the exercises Rip shows, and focus on it. Every rep.

Good luck. Post another vid and we'll go from there.

[ineddywetrust]

Hey MG, infinite thanks for coming back and being more critical.

I have checked out Rip's vid on LBC before and I can definitely control those muscles. In my squat thread, Brodie made it clear to me that the Superman exercise was used to become acquainted with those muscles but not to be in that much extension during the squat. Perhaps I need to attempt that much extension during a setup for deads? I made a quick LBC vid just to make sure I got it right?


http://youtu.be/IikYlxO3UlE

Was it in my third video above where my lower back seemed to be the closest to being set? Because that was where I was lowering my hips. I am actually getting a bit confused here regarding lowering hips/raising chest for the setup.

The list is pretty goddamn adamant regarding lowering your hips:

"4. Hard part: squeeze your chest up as hard as you can. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR. This establishes a "wave" of extension that goes all the way down to the lumbar, and sets the back angle from the top down. DO NOT LOWER YOUR HIPS – LIFT THE CHEST TO SET THE BACK ANGLE."

But in the video below it seems like the dude is lowering his hips? Is it okay to lower your hips if it is a result from raising your chest? I think that I could get those muscles so much tighter if I lowered my hips more. Thatis a little frustrating.


http://youtu.be/Syt7A23YnpA

Another thing that I usually try to think of when setting up is being conscious of where my shoulders are relative to the bar. I usually try to have them immediately above the bar.

Regardless, I didn't remember that I was supposed to look 12-15' infront of me so I will definitely go over the chapter again in case I'm missing something else. I'll also mark my shoes where the middle of my foot is too so that will be unquestionably clear to me and I'll follow the things you outlined above (pushing straight down, lifting efficiency). Expect a video next Thursday or Friday.

Thanks again, I really appreciate you coming back and clearing things up.

[Milo's Ghost]

I just watched a video of a dude arching his lower back at 10:30 on a Sunday night. I need to get a life. Also possibly a therapist.

Be that as it may ...

Ok I am sufficiently convinced that you can control your lower back. But you just don't do it when you deadlift. Yes, you want to try to arch your lower back. You won't really be able to because of the tension from your hamstrings in the start position, but by trying to you'll be able to keep it neutral. Occasionally people will overextend their lower back in the deadlift, but it's almost always women or really skinny/flexible dudes.

As for lowering your hips ...

Watch the video you posted carefully. Yes, he lowers his hips. But as he starts the pull, notice how he raises them again before the bar actually moves? This will always happen. The body moves into the correct position to pull the bar. So no, lowering your hips is not the answer.

Squeezing your chest up is HARD. It's uncomfortable. It's difficult. And especially on the last couple reps, it gets really really hard. You have to focus on it, which is also hard because you're fucking gassed from picking up a barbell with lots of plates on it that very much doesn't give a shit what you want it to do and would much rather just stay where it is on the ground thank you very much.

Dropping your hips won't help and it'll make the pull less efficient because a) it'll push the bar forward of the midfoot and b) you'll raise your hips anyway and that's wasted movement that doesn't actually move the damn bar.

You're really trying here and thinking about this and that makes me happy. But there's no way to make the hardest part of the setup - squeezing your chest up - any easier. It's like saying 'if I could just collapse my knees inward as I come out of the hole the squat would be way easier.' That seems to make sense because it's what your body wants to do - BUT IT'S FUCKING WRONG. We know this. Yes, the lift would be 'easier' in the sense that keeping your knees out is hard; but it would also make it less likely the thing goes back up. It would be easiest, in some sense, to just let the damn thing staple you to the floor. But ... No.

'And it would be good if some of you people learned that comfort and ease are not often associated with progress and accomplishment in any endeavor.' - Rip

To answer your question more directly: NO. It is not ok to lower your hips. I will beat you with a fucking 2x4 if I see you do it.

Shoulders: no. Your shoulders are in front of the bar. Your scapulas are directly over it. But don't think of any of this, because it's not easy (it may be impossible but I'm not prepared to defend that statement atm) to know exactly where something on the back of you is over a bar that you're not looking at. When you are about to fuck a girl, do you figure out where to stick it in by thinking 'my ass should be over her vagina'? No. You don't. I hope.

Think: Bar over midfoot. Grab the bar. Bend your knees to meet it but DON'T FUCKING MOVE IT. Be on your whole foot - neither heels nor toes. Squeeze your chest up. If you do this your setup will be correct. Promise.

[ineddywetrust]

Be gentle.


http://youtu.be/wg7kDblO8dA



http://youtu.be/wNXmQ1u67XA



http://youtu.be/ZCxlk5UGHkY

135, 155, 195. I did a set at 175 but the battery was dying so I saved the life for the set at 195.

[Milo's Ghost]

Be gentle.

That's what she ... no, actually, they never say that.

I only watched the last vid - seeing what you do at 135 isn't going to tell us anything.

These are *much* better. Your back is 1000x times better. Good job.

Here's what you still need to work on:

1) You still move around too much before you pull. I know why you're doing it - you're trying to feel the right position - but the only way to feel it is to follow the setup. Shins to bar, don't move it, make sure you're on your whole foot, chest up. If you do those things, you'll be in the right position to pull.
2) As the set progresses you start to lower your hips. Your anthropometry means your hips are going to be pretty high - you've just got to get used to it. Where they are on the first couple reps is pretty good; compare to the last one, where your hips are much lower and you jerk them up before you pull.
3) I may be going crazy (seriously, this is a real possibility), but I get the *sense* you're pushing more with your heels than your entire foot. Your legs seem to be back a bit too much than they would be if you were pushing with your whole foot. This cue may help - don't think of pulling the bar up; think of pushing through the floor.
4) You're pretty damn tight before the pull, which is good; stay that way. Your back rounds every time you pull. The setup is there, but then you let it round when the weight breaks the floor. Don't do that. It's not HORRIBLE, but this is also a relatively light weight for you.
5) Extend your hips all the way at lockout. Just stand up like you would if the bar wasn't there. Chest up at lockout, too.

Work on the above, add weight, DL every other workout for a while, crush it.

And really, nice job. Lots of improvement here.

[ineddywetrust]

Fucking A. Well, I'm pretty stoked now, man.

About the weight on heels and moving around: I definitely am rotating about the bar after initially raising my chest because I feel like my hips are way too high so I rotate a little and then the weight feels like its on the heels and I go back and forth searching for a sweet spot. But I'll take your word on my anthropometric structure and only pull when the weight is over my whole foot and not worry about hips being too high. It is really awkward, but I'll get used to it. The sitting back in squats was really foreign to me as well but I got used to it.

Can you think of anything that would help with not loosening up before the pull? The rounding concerns me because I do have a fucked back and I don't want it to get worse. That's irritating that I am doing that.

Thanks for checking out my videos, coaching, and laying down the law about the hips. You've helped me out A LOT. I'll make sure I lock everything out at the top too. I'll post another video next week too as I feel I still got some critical things to work on.

[Milo's Ghost]

About the weight on heels and moving around: I definitely am rotating about the bar after initially raising my chest because I feel like my hips are way too high so I rotate a little and then the weight feels like its on the heels and I go back and forth searching for a sweet spot. But I'll take your word on my anthropometric structure and only pull when the weight is over my whole foot and not worry about hips being too high. It is really awkward, but I'll get used to it. The sitting back in squats was really foreign to me as well but I got used to it.

Bingo. A lot of people feel their hips are too high DLing with this method - Rip mentions it specifically in SS - but it's a more efficient way to pull. You'll get used to it.

Can you think of anything that would help with not loosening up before the pull? The rounding concerns me because I do have a fucked back and I don't want it to get worse. That's irritating that I am doing that.

Just to be clear, it's not that bad, but the problem is, if you don't focus on it, it'll get worse as the weight gets heavier. And that's really what it takes - focus on it throughout the ENTIRE pull. People can lose extension because as soon as they start the pull, they think 'fuck this is heavy' and everything else goes out the window. Just be cognizant of the issue and keep working on it.

Thanks for checking out my videos, coaching, and laying down the law about the hips. You've helped me out A LOT. I'll make sure I lock everything out at the top too. I'll post another video next week too as I feel I still got some critical things to work on.

You're welcome.