Low Bar vs. High Bar Squat for the Olympics

[eddiemun0503]

Can someone who squats more with low bar always squat more high-bar than someone who has always been squatting high bar? By this token, is someone who squats low bar always stronger than someone who squats high bar, provided that both have the exact same genetics and train by the same volume?

The evidence for the argument presented in SSBBT3 that the low bar squat being superior to the high bar squat for Olympic lifters seems inadequate by just comparing the pulling position of the clean and the snatch with the back angle of the low bar squat. While the horizontal back angle may look similar to the starting position of the Olympic lifts, the hips are too low in the low bar squats anyways to compare the two lifts. As Rip says, the squat and the deadlift are two different mechanics. The latter is a pull. Furthermore, I believe the emphasis of the high bar squat in the training regimen of Olympic lifters is on account of the fact that the receiving position in the snatch and the clean is a full ATG squat. Perhaps Olympic lifters train the high bar squat to emulate the bottom position by squatting the most weight in that position, because they are well aware of the fact that the intensity with which one trains the high bar squat exceeds the overhead squats and front squats. Certainly, the intensity with which one could train the low bar far exceeds that of the high bar back squat, however, Olympic lifters are willing to make that compromise by perhaps consolidating the neuromuscular pathways they would actively use in the overhead squat and the front squat.

[Scaldrew]

https://startingstrength.com/article...t_rippetoe.pdf

[Fulcrum]

Can someone who squats more with low bar always squat more high-bar than someone who has always been squatting high bar?

no one knows

By this token, is someone who squats low bar always stronger than someone who squats high bar, provided that both have the exact same genetics and train by the same volume?

not stronger, just displaying more weight on the bar because of the better leverages with low bar squat.

The evidence for the argument presented in SSBBT3 that the low bar squat being superior to the high bar squat for Olympic lifters seems inadequate by just comparing the pulling position of the clean and the snatch with the back angle of the low bar squat. While the horizontal back angle may look similar to the starting position of the Olympic lifts, the hips are too low in the low bar squats anyways to compare the two lifts. As Rip says, the squat and the deadlift are two different mechanics. The latter is a pull. Furthermore, I believe the emphasis of the high bar squat in the training regimen of Olympic lifters is on account of the fact that the receiving position in the snatch and the clean is a full ATG squat. Perhaps Olympic lifters train the high bar squat to emulate the bottom position by squatting the most weight in that position, because they are well aware of the fact that the intensity with which one trains the high bar squat exceeds the overhead squats and front squats. Certainly, the intensity with which one could train the low bar far exceeds that of the high bar back squat, however, Olympic lifters are willing to make that compromise by perhaps consolidating the neuromuscular pathways they would actively use in the overhead squat and the front squat.

Is there a question here ^ ?

[Satch12879]

The evidence for the argument presented in SSBBT3 that the low bar squat being superior to the high bar squat for Olympic lifters seems inadequate by just comparing the pulling position of the clean and the snatch with the back angle of the low bar squat.

The argument in SSBBT3 is that the squat is a strength training exercise and that American olympic lifters aren't strong enough. Thus, Olympic lifters should get strong, because Olympic lifting is a strength sport and the highest total, not the best form, wins.

While the horizontal back angle may look similar to the starting position of the Olympic lifts, the hips are too low in the low bar squats anyways to compare the two lifts.

We don't use the squat to train the Olympic lifts; we use the squat to get stronger. The Olympic lifts are trained/practiced separately.

As Rip says, the squat and the deadlift are two different mechanics. The latter is a pull.

It is better to compare the deadlift to the Olympic lifts than the squat, yes.

Furthermore, I believe the emphasis of the high bar squat in the training regimen of Olympic lifters is on account of the fact that the receiving position in the snatch and the clean is a full ATG squat.

The receiving position of those movements is a front squat, and Rip has said that the front squat needs to be trained for Olympic lifters.

Perhaps Olympic lifters train the high bar squat to emulate the bottom position by squatting the most weight in that position,

IF they train the high bar squat, it's because of the fact that the movement is easier to learn and less intensive to coach. And Olympic lifting coaches care more about you practicing the Olympic lifts instead of getting stronger. As mentioned above, the front squat is probably better for them to train.

because they are well aware of the fact that the intensity with which one trains the high bar squat exceeds the overhead squats and front squats.

Who knows?

Certainly, the intensity with which one could train the low bar far exceeds that of the high bar back squat

Sure.

however, Olympic lifters are willing to make that compromise by perhaps consolidating the neuromuscular pathways they would actively use in the overhead squat and the front squat.

Olympic lifters think they can get higher totals by working on technique, but then complain when stronger lifters out pull them. The rest is some kind of mumbo jumbo.

[Fulcrum]

Olympic lifters think they can get higher totals by working on technique,

No one ever never ever never ever got a "higher total" by working on their technique. Period.

but then complain when stronger lifters

please, some citations or quotes for this ^.

out pull them.

makes no sense ^

[Meshuggah]

The amount of fuss made over a couple inches of bar position is simply ridiculous. Experiment with what works best for you and put in the work.

Kevin Oak does pretty well with High Bar.

[Adam Skillin]

The amount of fuss made over a couple inches of bar position is simply ridiculous. Experiment with what works best for you and put in the work.

Kevin Oak does pretty well with High Bar.

A lot of extremely strong people have squatted a lot of weight in both high bar and low bar style, but that doesn't mean it's not valid or useful to analyze the differences and make an informed decision about what's the best for regular folks (and aspiring olympic lifters). In addition to the Rippetoe article linked above, Wolf did a really excellent job looking at this way back in 2013, with some specific analysis as to why the low bar squat may not only be a better choice for training Olympic lifters, but is actually more specific to recovery from the snatch. Here's the link for anyone who enjoys analyzing such things.

Musings on the High Bar vs Low Bar Squat Debate | Wolf Strength and Conditioning

[samking7185]

A lot of extremely strong people have squatted a lot of weight in both high bar and low bar style, but that doesn't mean it's not valid or useful to analyze the differences and make an informed decision about what's the best for regular folks (and aspiring olympic lifters). In addition to the Rippetoe article linked above, Wolf did a really excellent job looking at this way back in 2013, with some specific analysis as to why the low bar squat may not only be a better choice for training Olympic lifters, but is actually more specific to recovery from the snatch. Here's the link for anyone who enjoys analyzing such things.

Musings on the High Bar vs Low Bar Squat Debate | Wolf Strength and Conditioning

FWIW if you zoom out of the OL issue, there is plenty of SS content talking about sport specific training (or non specific training) which is basically what this boils down to.

[Adam Skillin]

FWIW if you zoom out of the OL issue, there is plenty of SS content talking about sport specific training (or non specific training) which is basically what this boils down to.

You're absolutely right, samking. We're talking about training, not practice. Practice for a 1RM Snatch is a 95% or heavier snatch, because the mechanics of a 70% snatch are different due to basic principles of physics. The back squat is performed by olympic weightlifters because it makes them strong, not because it resembles the recovery from a heavy clean or snatch. And our analysis suggests that the low bar back squat is the better training tool for making the lifter strong, which is why it seems to us, based on all non-phenomenon-based arguments, that the best squat variant for olympic lifters to use in their training is the low-bar back squat (or simply squat) as we teach it.

[Meshuggah]

Since low bar is all about gaining a leverage advantage, the case could be made that low bar is cheating.
The same thing could be said about benching with a wide grip.