Thoughts on Greg Nuckols' squat seminar and article

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Limitation of thoracic erector strength being the primary reason people squat less high bar than low bar?
Force distribution making bar position of less significance than it is commonly made out to be?
Hamstring involvement of little importance when discerning between 'knees forward' and 'hips back' styles of squats?
Hips forward as an effective coaching cue at the sticking point?
Eye and head position inconsequential?
Good morning squat caused primarily by quad-weakness?
Brace effectiveness the reason one can deadlift more than they can squat?

How to Squat: The Definitive Guide ? Strengtheory
HOW TO SQUAT - YouTube

Discuss.

[Toasterleavings]

I think they need to cut that video into sensibly categorized chapters/episodes/whatever the fuck social media videos come in as batches. As much as I love Lord of the Rings, I'm not watching an entire movie about the adventures of the Taller Sam Gamgee when there's no orcs or other weird shit, even if it is a thoughtful and passionate squat tour de force. I should just read the article. Ok so I started reading the article. Now that's some nicely condensed anatomical walkthrough so far. I've come to the only slightly likely to be erroneous conclusion that my squat is adductor magnus dominant - explains the tears to that exact muscle & the thigh chafing. And that time my mate's girlfriend commented on how I have a lot of meat between my legs and we all shat ourselves laughing and - anyway - this is not helping me get through War and Squats is it.

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Ha! The video is time stamped in the description with each section.

You know the one thing I hate about training is the meaty thigh chafe. The seminar is incomplete without a dedicated section on chafe prevention.

[Toasterleavings]

Ha! The video is time stamped in the description with each section.
You know the one thing I hate about training is the meaty thigh chafe. The seminar is incomplete without a dedicated section on chafe prevention.

Ok so now we've established I don't even know how to work a Show More button. I'll work through that and find a positive angle.

[Nate7out]

Haven't watched the seminar (probably never will) but I did read the article. Its much faster/easier for me to quickly read an article and maybe re-read the important bits rather than sit through a whole video. I think I am in the minority in preferring articles over videos, though.

There is another thread on this:

http://startingstrength.com/resource...nt-posted.html

Limitation of thoracic erector strength being the primary reason people squat less high bar than low bar?

The thoracic issue and high vs. low bar has been discussed here before - consensus was that it is likely.

Squat style being of insignificant importance to muscular recruitment?

Not necessarily I think the article addressed squat style and the change in muscle recruitment was the inclusion of the adductors when squatting low bar / wider stance.

Hips forward as an effective coaching cue at the sticking point?

Hips forward - I feel like that has happened to me twice on accident when grinding, I did feel like the weight flew up - also tweaked my SI joint.

Good morning squat caused primarily by quad-weakness?

My knees slide back a bit - I believe it is caused by quad weakness relative to hips.

Brace effectiveness the reason one can deadlift more than they can squat?

I am a manlet with short legs and long torso. I deadlift about 50-75 lbs. more than I squat - they should be closer based on my anthropometry. It would be awesome if some guru could just teach me how to brace and my squat would jump up that much, but I won't hold my breath.

[Shaun]

Disclaimer: Have not read the link or watched the video, and am taking the below as gospel.

Limitation of thoracic erector strength being the primary reason people squat less high bar than low bar?

I have heard Greg argue this at least once, and it would be useful if he could expound upon why this might be the case. A perfectly upright high-bar squat should effectively have little to no moment arm acting against the thoracic erectors, whereas a bent over low-bar squat will have a bigger one, as the mass of the barbell is acting at a location further away from their centre of mass. Given that people routinely pull heavy weights will fairly large amounts of upper back rounding, and manage to lock them out, this just doesn't seem plausible to me.

Squat style being of insignificant importance to muscular recruitment?

I'm not sure if Greg is arguing this, but yes, all of the lower body musculature will be "recruited" at least to some degree in any type of squat.

Hamstring involvement of little importance when discerning between 'knees forward' and 'hips back' styles of squats?

From what I have previously read on the topic, Greg argues that you should not try to modify squat mechanics to intentionally increase the use of the hamstrings. I think we are all in agreement with this in that the GM-squat, where the hamstrings are maximally stretched, is not something to strive towards.

However, there certainly is a difference in hamstring involvement between the knees forward and hips back squat (it's one of the key reasons why you would want to stick your hips back). The hamstrings attach at the ischial tuberosity and the lower leg. The further apart they are (and the more the ischial tuberosity is pointed away, i.e. forward lean) the more tension there will be on the hamstrings.

Hips forward as an effective coaching cue at the sticking point?

Try it and see, noting what happens to the bar speed at the point in the lift that this happens and thereafter.

Eye and head position inconsequential?

Possibly for the type of squat that Greg is teaching.

Good morning squat caused primarily by quad-weakness?

I'm not one to believe that every technique flaw has a corresponding muscle weakness - I tend to believe that most technique flaws are the result of simply not having been coached to perform the movement correctly, or having an insufficient awareness of the body's positioning or how to keep tight - but I don't see why a GM-squat would be caused by a quad weakness. What appears to have happened is that the quads have extended the knees whilst the hamstrings have failed to keep the back angle constant. Of course, it's more complicated than that, as things like spinal flexion tends to accompany the GM-squat, but I don't see how it could be attributed to a quad weakness.

Brace effectiveness the reason one can deadlift more than they can squat?

I don't know what "brace effectiveness" means so I won't dismiss it out of hand, but if it is a factor then it seems likely to be a less contributing one than the fact that the deadlift employs a lower ROM. It's easier to shift more weight through a lower ROM.

[OCG]

Try it and see, noting what happens to the bar speed at the point in the lift that this happens and thereafter.

Yeah, don't take Greg's word for it, don't take Rip's word for it, certainly don't take mine. Watch someone do it with a heavy weight and observe what happens to the bar speed.

I'm not one to believe that every technique flaw has a corresponding muscle weakness - I tend to believe that most technique flaws are the result of simply not having been coached to perform the movement correctly, or having an insufficient awareness of the body's positioning or how to keep tight - but I don't see why a GM-squat would be caused by a quad weakness. What appears to have happened is that the quads have extended the knees whilst the hamstrings have failed to keep the back angle constant. Of course, it's more complicated than that, as things like spinal flexion tends to accompany the GM-squat, but I don't see how it could be attributed to a quad weakness.

Basically this. My experience observing people squatting, and going from far too bent over all the way to too upright squats myself, has led me to the conclusion that it's mostly not a weakness and it's mostly just shitty form and tightness.

I don't know what "brace effectiveness" means so I won't dismiss it out of hand, but if it is a factor then it seems likely to be a less contributing one than the fact that the deadlift employs a lower ROM. It's easier to shift more weight through a lower ROM.

Am I the only one who finds it much harder to get tight when deadlifting than when squatting? When I squat I get to start with the weight already on my back and I get to tighten up on the way down under load. I find it's way harder to get tight against a weight that's mostly supported by the ground. If again, you observe some very good (long armed) deadlifters, you'll see their start position is basically a quarter squat and that a very good sumo deadlifter can approach a position close to a 1/8th squat before the bar leaves the ground. This probably has more to do with it than whatever your abs are doing.

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Am I the only one who finds it much harder to get tight when deadlifting than when squatting?

Amen to that!

[transom]

I'm not sure if Greg is arguing this, but yes, all of the lower body musculature will be "recruited" at least to some degree in any type of squat.

Yep, completely misinterpreted the point. What he was really saying was that due to force distribution bar position is of less significance than it is commonly made out to be and that non sport-specific athletes should just choose the squat comfortable for them and that they are able to make most progress on.

[transom]

Not necessarily I think the article addressed squat style and the change in muscle recruitment was the inclusion of the adductors when squatting low bar / wider stance.

Yep, completely misinterpreted the point. What he was really saying was that due to force distribution bar position is of less significance than it is commonly made out to be and that non sport-specific athletes should just choose the squat comfortable for them and that they are able to make most progress on.