Squat Form Check

[Andrew Chang]

A form check would be greatly appreciated.

YouTube

[Michael Wolf]

Andrew, that looks like a high bar squat and generally not in any way how we teach it here. Have you read the book, or at least watched the video tutorials (Rip with Art of Manliness; the SS DVD squat portion, which is available free on YouTube; Alan Thrall's Low Bar video from July, 2017)? If you have, we'll go over what you need to do. But if you haven't, you'll need to do so before we go further, so you have some context to understand the cues I'm going to give you. I am not going to type out a "how to low bar squat" tutorial from scratch, when there are already several easy to access resources for you on that.

*Kiddies, note how nice I am being to Andrew, since he is a verified user.

[Andrew Chang]

Thanks for the timely response.

I've read Starting Strength once and watched the video tutorials on Youtube (Art of Manliness and Alan Thrall). I wasn't certain before, but I have now confirmed that I am probably doing a high bar squat.

For some reason, the low bar position (or what I thought was a low bar position ) never felt "right." If given a picture, I know how to identify where to place the bar in a low bar squat ("just under the spine of the scapula), but when it comes to execution, the bar doesn't seem to be secure. Maybe I had the bar in the right place and didn't commit to accustoming myself to the new feeling of the bar on my back. Clearly, there is some disconnect between knowledge and execution ("kinesthetic awareness," as people call it).

1) If I lower the bar placement little by little, can I assume that it's in the correct position if it's not sliding around in the middle of the set? In other words, when I unrack the bar, how do I know I am doing the low-bar squat, and not some other distorted movement? When have I "over-shot?"

From my understanding, the difference between the bar positioning of a low bar and high bar squat is not very great (a couple of inches, perhaps). I may have exaggerated the low bar position, and this could explain why the bar felt insecure.

2) Would what I am currently doing be a correctly performed high bar squat? If my general mechanics are mostly correct, the transition between high bar to low bar should be smoother.

3) How do the cues differ between the high bar and the low bar squat? I know the typical Starting Strength cue is something along the lines of "point your chest down" or "drive your hips up," among others. Would these cues not apply to a high bar, so long as the bar is moving in a straight line over the middle of the foot?

Again, thanks for taking the time to help.

[Michael Wolf]

Have you watched this video? You might find it useful:

1. If your elbows are up a little, as they should be, the bar will stick on the shelf, instead of sliding down further. You can see people testing this in the video above, BEFORE they unrack the bar. They push and wiggle themselves so the bar would slide down further if it wasn't sitting stably on the shelf. Since it is, it sticks and doesn't move. The difference is a few inches, not massive, but it's clearly visually identifiable when viewed from behind, and makes a difference in the resultant diagnostic angles in the squat.

2. The mechanics of a "correct" high vs low bar squat are quite different, so even if your high bar was perfect, it wouldn't necessarily make a smooth transition, unfortunately. The strength built in one carries over well to the other, but there are non-trivial differences in how they are performed.

That said, as high bar squats go they're not bad. Looks like you're getting a little forward of midfoot, which is an issue no matter how you squat. Keep your gaze steady, too - I like a slightly higher gaze point for high bar, but still a stable one. Don't "look up as you go up" but set your gaze point and keep your eyes on it and head relatively still the whole time.

3. Like I wrote above, I can't type out the entire set of differences, and instructions in how to do the low bar. That's what SS was written for, after all! I recommend re-watching the vids I'll link below. The basic differences are that in the low bar squat:
a) you'll lean over more on the way down, so your knees will travel less forward and your hips will travel more back ("sit back").
b) you'll drive your hips straight up to get back up out of the hole. Your back angle should remain constant, after - perhaps - a slight lead with the hips when you first initiate ascent, but the hips are clearly the driver.

[Andrew Chang]

Today I attempted the low bar squat bar position. Below is the link to one of my sets with 200 pounds. I intentionally chose this clip because it includes technical breakdown on rep five. Perhaps this may aid in your diagnosis of my squat form issues.

YouTube

A few things I noticed:

1. Elbow and wrist pain
There doesn't seem to be a shortage of information online regarding this topic, so I will refer to those articles and videos for advice.

2. Bar moving around / insecure
It feels like my arms / wrists are supporting too much of the load, since the bar feels less secure in the low bar position than it would in the high bar position.
It seems like this problem would resolve with more time practicing the low bar squat / emphasis on upper back tightness.

3. Weaker than high bar squat / "Good Morning Squat"
Not all squats were a "good morning" squat -- I specifically chose to include the above video to illustrate a technical breakdown.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I speculate that the low bar squat felt harder than the high bar squat because I am still learning a new movement pattern. Thus, the decrease motor unit recruitment outweighs the mechanical advantage of the low bar squat.

As for the "good morning" squat, I would think that it's because I let myself fall forward too much. Thus, I rounded my lumbar spine to decrease the moment arm from the hips. Next time, I probably should sit back a little more. Sound about right?

Final question:
I hope to adopt a low bar squat to increase the rate of strength progression (as compared to a high bar squat). If the elbow / wrist pain persists even after making adjustments, and the low bar squat still doesn't feel right after a few weeks, should I run novice LP with the high bar squat?

I would expect that most people would stall out sooner with the high bar squat than with the low bar squat. However, if the low bar squat simply doesn't "feel" as good, it seems the limiting factor in the novice progression would not be true strength (if the bar positioning is bothersome, someone is less likely to exert maximal effort). Just my thoughts.


Again, thanks for all of your help!

[Michael Wolf]

You really like these long posts, don't ya?? A lot to reply to here.

First, your low bar technique: Bar looks like it's more or less in the right place, but from this angle I can't tell you if it's in the exact right place. This may or may not be related to your wrist, elbow pain and lack of ability to keep the bar stable. More on that in a minute.

As far as what to work on first: Lean over a bit more on the way down (this addresses a Q later in your post), cut off about 4 inches of depth so you're just below parallel instead of way below and drive your HIPS up - you're still trying to get up by lifting your chest. Keeping your gaze on a specific spot 3-6 feet in front of you the entire set will help with this. Right now, you look more down as you start to descend, and then sometimes change your gaze during the rep. After you walk the bar out but before you start the actual rep, pick your spot, and look only at that spot until after you lock out the 5th rep, and are ready to rack the bar.

Now, back to your comments.

Wrists and elbows: yes, much has been written about this. When taking the proper, classic SS grip, there should be no wrist issues. That's the whole point of the thumbs over/wrists flat grip. I can't clearly see your wrists from here, but they don't look bent back. Maybe slightly flexed, but I really can't tell.

Elbows do occasionally hurt some people even when they seem to be taking a proper grip. Sometimes the solution is a wider grip, and not trying to "death grip" the bar; other times, wrapping thumbs around the bar and letting the wrists bend back helps the elbows. Of course, that puts increased strain on the wrists, so usually wrist wraps are appropriate if you need to take that grip to avoid bad elbow pain.

Bar Moving Around: This is essential and you need to nail it down before lifting heavy weights. Judging by how hard this set was for you, you should not be doing sets with 200 until you have learned and mastered a stable bar position. The video I linked above should help, and you should re-watch it. Without being there to go through the process with you in person, it's hard to recommend an exact weight to go down to, but I'd guess something like 150. This is to learn and really establish a correct grip and stable bar position.

You will not stay at this weight for long. Whatever the proper weight is, you will begin adding weight again right away - either 5 or 10 lbs at a time, depending how quickly you are learning and doing a better job getting the bar in the right place and holding it stably there. If you take some 10 lbs jumps, then reduce back down to 5 when you get to where it's hard again.

Weaker Than High Bar Squat: I've coached a strength program at a Crossfit gym for the last 3.5 years, where I have taught hundreds of people who had only ever high bar squatted, how to low bar squat, and then ran them on an LP. Every single one of them was weaker the first time they did low bar, than they were in the high bar squat they had always done before. Some of them wanted to quit after the first class, because of how weak they felt and how much they didn't like the low bar. Every one, without exception, was significantly stronger by the end of the class (8 weeks) than they were before, usually in the range of 40-70 lbs, and the majority of them prefer the low bar to the high bar when they have a choice, even after going back to crossfit.

So why does it feel so bad/weak at first? Simple. It's new, you don't know how to do it yet, and you've gotten good at something sufficiently similar so you think you should be good at this one right away, and may be frustrated and confused when you aren't.

With proper coaching, most people are proficient enough in low bar after 4-6 workouts that they no longer dislike it or "feel weak" when doing it. Without coaching, it may take you longer, but you'll get there before long.

Final Q: Low bar is sufficiently better than high bar that it's worth taking the time to learn properly. However, if you do have issues that legitimately make it impossible for you to do, then yes, an LP with high bar is better than no LP at all. However, this is very unlikely to be the case. Older men (50+) and people who have had serious (usually shoulder) injuries account for almost all the people who legitimately can't do low bar. Taking out those two groups, I've only seen a handful of people, out of several thousand I've coached, who couldn't do low bar.

[Andrew Chang]

Thank you for the nuanced response.

Few observations from today's squats:

1. Elbows felt better today when I focused on keeping them closer to in-line with my torso.

2. The bar felt much more stable on my back today, and I did not notice it moving around.
Hence ...

3. Low bar squat strength seems to be on par with my old high bar squat, or very close.

The squat video shown was intentionally chosen because it included a quite pronounced technical breakdown. I did 200x5 before without any grinding, and 185x5 moved very quickly afterwards. That was my first day working with the low-bar squat, which probably explains the rapid strength increase since then.

4. I don't think I'll need to switch back to high-bar squats. I've booked two sessions with a local Bay Area SS coach (Kelly), which definitely will help clean up my form on all of the main lifts.

Thanks again for all the help!

[Michael Wolf]

Glad to hear you'll be seeing Kelly. You'll find you're able to squat better much more quickly with in person coaching than via online form checks, though hopefully this helped give you a better place to start with her from.

Regarding #3, you should take weight off the bar when switching from high to low bar. It's not a bad thing to do, but a necessary thing, because they are different movements. They're similar enough that they can be confused when you don't know both well yet. So you shouldn't try to start your low bar squat at the same place you've done a high bar squat.

When I first started learning low bar squats, I had been high bar squatting 2-3x/week for 3 or 4 years, and had squatted 385x1 and 335x5x3 that way. I don't recall exact what weight I went down to to learn low bar, but it was in the 185-225 range. I probably wouldn't have need to go down so much if I had had a coach, or even online form checks like this, but without those things, that's what I needed to do.

So don't try to stay at 200 just because you have done 200 high bar without grinding. Go down to a weight light enough that you can focus solely on the technique without the weight being a factor in technical breakdown, but heavy enough that you feel the weight and it just starts to get the slightest bit hard on the last rep. Since you're a man who appreciates nuance, this would be something like an RPE 6-6.5. Again, don't stay there for long - either one or maximum two workouts, and then work back up.

W1: 150, 160, 170
W2: 180, 190, 195
W3: 200, 205, 210

If you think it's not worth taking 2 weeks to learn how to do this correctly, instead of being stubborn and refusing to temporarily take weight off the bar...well, maybe I'll let Kelly yell at you for this.

[Evelyn O'Donnell]

I've booked two sessions with a local Bay Area SS coach (Kelly)

Cool, Andrew! Assuming you're in Alameda, that's my super awesome coach! The two one-on-one sessions will be well worth your time and money. In addition to that, I highly recommend signing up for the classes if you're able to, even if it's just for a month or two. That way you can make a bunch of progress, without letting poor form creep back in. --Evelyn