Why have I detrained so much?

[Matthew Phoenix Pennisi]

Hello there. My question in regards to detraining is captured in #10 below.

1) Age / sex? 30 / Male
2) Current Body Weight? 215
3) Current programming (what program are you using). HLM
4) How long have you been on current programming? 1 week
5) Starting body weight (what was your body weight when you started lifting? Started current program?). I weighed 165 when I started lifting, 215 when I started HLM
6) Increment you are using on the lift in question. When did you switch to this increment? What was the previous Increment for the lift in question? I am making 5 pound jumps on the squat and deadlift on HLM. Previously was making 2.5 pound jumps on the squat and 5 pound jumps on the deadlift in the advanced novice stage.
7) Caloric intake (in calories-ish. The answer "sufficient caloric intake" is totally insufficient). ~2500
8) Protien Intake (gr/day) ~200g. In the past week while traveling, it was likely a lot lower, probably around 100g
9) Amount of rest between sets (work sets). 6-8 minutes
10) What weight you started the program at (weight on the bar for the lift in question) and a detailed description of how long, what increments were used, and what kind of breaks / vacations / etc caused a disruption in the programming). I started HLM at 275lb for the squat and 375 for the deadlift. Previous to that, I had finished my novice LP with a squat of 312.5 x 4 and a deadlift of 400 x 4. At this point I was in the advanced novice stage, doing 1 top set of squats with 2 backoff sets with a light day on Wednesday. Since I finished my LP on a Monday, I decided to test my maxes the rest of the week rather than switch to HLM in the middle of the week. During this time, I could only manage a 315 squat for 1 rep and a 405 deadlift for 1 rep, which already seems odd to me since I was able to do 312.5 for 4 and 400 for 4 on each lift, respectively.

The following week I traveled across the US for the holidays. During this time, I didn't lose any weight, but my protein intake was probably 100g/day. I managed to get 2 training sessions in during that week and decided to get going on HLM. My goal was to squat 275x5x5 and DL 375x5x1, but 275 on the squat was too heavy and I bumped it down to 255 for the remaining 4 sets. For the deadlift, I could only pull 375 for 2 reps and couldn't break the 3rd off the ground.

The following week (Today), I am back home and have been eating normally for the past two days, with ~200g of protein per day. Since it's a Monday, I did another heavy day, squatting 260x5x5 and bumping the DL down to 365x5x1 since I failed 375. The squat sets felt very heavy and I barely finished the workout. For the deadlift, I only managed 1 rep at 365 and pulled the second rep maybe 2 inches off the ground.

I am baffled why my lifts have plummeted so much with only having missed 1 session in the past week. I don't think my starting weight for the squat on HLM (275x5x5) was unreasonable since at the end of my LP I did 312.5x4x1 followed by two backoffs of 280x5x2. I am completely lost on what's going on with the deadlift. I know the lack of protein in the past week has something to do with it, but these decreases in my squat/deadlift seem pretty drastic. Is it normal for people to detrain this significantly?
11) Other activity that you are engaging in (sports, hobbies, job that causes physical exertion).None.

Thanks so much for any insight.

[Michael Wolf]

I would guess that the combination of extensive travel and inadequate protein over the course of a week affected you, too, but the real culprit here is likely that you ran your LP hard as far as you could, using some tricks to prolong it - but that means at the end, you have a bunch of accumulated fatigue. What's likely is not that you have detrained, but that you weren't recovered at the end of a long run of LP, and then compounded that with travel and inadequate nutrition for recovery.

You didn't give any details on how you designed / or what template you're using for your HLM, but generally coming out of a hard LP that was truly completed, it's a good idea to give it 2-3 weeks to adjust to the new program and hit a new PR on the 3rd or 4th week. That obviously isn't always the case and can often be designed around with an experienced coach; but when doing this yourself for the first time, is usually a good idea.

But regarding what you wrote:275x5x5 actually is a very aggressive starting point for finishing your LP at 312x4. 90% of 5RM for 5x5 is generally the highest end of what early Intermediate men can get away with for 5x5 and still be recovered enough to do even a light squat workout a couple days later, and then another heavy one a couple days after that. And you actually might be over 90% there, since you didn't say what your best set of 5 was.

But regardless, 260 is probably a better place to start. Hard to say more without knowing how you set up your HLM, but the problem here is lingering end of LP fatigue + travel/diet issues.

[Matthew Phoenix Pennisi]

Thanks, Wolf! I think you are right in regards to the fatigue being the other significant factor, but just to be thorough and answer your question on the HLM template:

I was using Program #1 on page 163 from PPST, for general strength training or powerlifting. The heavy days call for a 5x5 on the squat and a 1x5 on the DL. Since my 5RM was 310 on the squat, I figured that starting at 275 was a little conservative given that 90% of 310 would be 280. I guess that with the travel/diet, it ended up being too aggressive of a starting point.

[Keith Burnett]

Hello there. My question in regards to detraining is captured in #10 below.

1) Age / sex? 30 / Male
2) Current Body Weight? 215
3) Current programming (what program are you using). HLM
4) How long have you been on current programming? 1 week
5) Starting body weight (what was your body weight when you started lifting? Started current program?). I weighed 165 when I started lifting, 215 when I started HLM
6) Increment you are using on the lift in question. When did you switch to this increment? What was the previous Increment for the lift in question? I am making 5 pound jumps on the squat and deadlift on HLM. Previously was making 2.5 pound jumps on the squat and 5 pound jumps on the deadlift in the advanced novice stage.
7) Caloric intake (in calories-ish. The answer "sufficient caloric intake" is totally insufficient). ~2500
8) Protien Intake (gr/day) ~200g. In the past week while traveling, it was likely a lot lower, probably around 100g
9) Amount of rest between sets (work sets). 6-8 minutes
10) What weight you started the program at (weight on the bar for the lift in question) and a detailed description of how long, what increments were used, and what kind of breaks / vacations / etc caused a disruption in the programming). I started HLM at 275lb for the squat and 375 for the deadlift. Previous to that, I had finished my novice LP with a squat of 312.5 x 4 and a deadlift of 400 x 4. At this point I was in the advanced novice stage, doing 1 top set of squats with 2 backoff sets with a light day on Wednesday. Since I finished my LP on a Monday, I decided to test my maxes the rest of the week rather than switch to HLM in the middle of the week. During this time, I could only manage a 315 squat for 1 rep and a 405 deadlift for 1 rep, which already seems odd to me since I was able to do 312.5 for 4 and 400 for 4 on each lift, respectively.

The following week I traveled across the US for the holidays. During this time, I didn't lose any weight, but my protein intake was probably 100g/day. I managed to get 2 training sessions in during that week and decided to get going on HLM. My goal was to squat 275x5x5 and DL 375x5x1, but 275 on the squat was too heavy and I bumped it down to 255 for the remaining 4 sets. For the deadlift, I could only pull 375 for 2 reps and couldn't break the 3rd off the ground.

The following week (Today), I am back home and have been eating normally for the past two days, with ~200g of protein per day. Since it's a Monday, I did another heavy day, squatting 260x5x5 and bumping the DL down to 365x5x1 since I failed 375. The squat sets felt very heavy and I barely finished the workout. For the deadlift, I only managed 1 rep at 365 and pulled the second rep maybe 2 inches off the ground.

I am baffled why my lifts have plummeted so much with only having missed 1 session in the past week. I don't think my starting weight for the squat on HLM (275x5x5) was unreasonable since at the end of my LP I did 312.5x4x1 followed by two backoffs of 280x5x2. I am completely lost on what's going on with the deadlift. I know the lack of protein in the past week has something to do with it, but these decreases in my squat/deadlift seem pretty drastic. Is it normal for people to detrain this significantly?
11) Other activity that you are engaging in (sports, hobbies, job that causes physical exertion).None.

Thanks so much for any insight.

How many time zones did you actually cross in your travels to and from? At Salk Institute , they claim it takes at least one day per TZ hour crossed to be in phase with your initial 24 hour rhythm. Research into diurnal variations in response to training is few and far between....but , there was a a recent article that showed a 10- 15% loss in performance in the morning as compared to afternoon, but I bet the time shifts had a lot to do with it. Perhaps the protein too and the quality of sleep and other psychological stresses of a "family get together"?

[Michael Wolf]

I don't have the book open in front of me at the moment, but 90% of 310 is 279, so 275 is like 99% of that; meaning, 275 isn't conservative at all. But what Baker writes there in the book needs to be constantly remembered: especially beyond Novice phase, these programs aren't meant to be set for set, rep for rep instructions. They're guidelines, templates, and examples.

Anyway - try starting at 255 or 260.

[Matthew Phoenix Pennisi]

@Keith - I went through 4 time zones (Pacific, Mountain, Central and Eastern) traveling from Cali to NY. That's interesting information. Definitely some psychological stresses from interacting with family.

@Wolf - Thanks again, I will keep that in mind for future programming.

[Bradley Gish]

But what Baker writes there in the book needs to be constantly remembered: especially beyond Novice phase, these programs aren't meant to be set for set, rep for rep instructions. They're guidelines, templates, and examples.

Anyway - try starting at 255 or 260.

The examples in PPST3 are intended to be illustrations, not at all written in stone, but I pretty much mimicked this HLM template and have had decent success with it, exclusively for my squat( I’ve been using different programming for my press). I actually ran two whole cycles( my third cycle was cut short midway recently because I took vacation) the past year. I start out running 5x5s for the initial 5-7 weeks( aiming to hit 2-3 PRs on the final weeks). Then I drop to 5x3s for my heavy work, usually just for 4-5 weeks for triples, but again, shooting for a PR or 2 for the final weeks. Once triples are no longer possible ( I try to use good perception, I’ve never actually missed a rep while running this program), I switch to 5x1 for my heavy load. At this time I adjust volume for the L and M days as well, whereas, I was previously doing 5x3 @ 80% on my light day( this gets reduced to 3x3) and 5x3 on my medium day load @ 90%( this gets adjusted to 1x5), and I can usually ride this out for 8-9 weeks, setting PRs for clusters of singles, and also a new 5RM or two for the medium day load. I will also note that I pull heavy on heavy Squat day as well, using a five week rotation of HDL/RP/HDL/RP/DL. Throughout my training career I’ve found that I prefer applying the stress systematically and equally across the board. Others will disagree. I recently watched a YouTube video of Coach Baker describing the differences between TM and HLM. Towards the end he stated that he doesn’t get as much feedback for HLM programs as he does TM. I’m going on record to say that the HLM program illustrated in PPST3 for powerlifting and general strength has worked well for me, and hopefully I can get at least one more good run at it!

[Michael Wolf]

The examples in PPST3 are intended to be illustrations, not at all written in stone, but I pretty much mimicked this HLM template and have had decent success with it, exclusively for my squat( I’ve been using different programming for my press). I actually ran two whole cycles( my third cycle was cut short midway recently because I took vacation) the past year.

Ya, the hard thing about post-Novice programming is, without having done it before or coached others through it, it's impossible to have the experience and context to know if and when you should make adjustments to a base template, and if so, what those adjustments should be. Even without looking at it in front of me right now, the program obviously *can* be run as written, and I'll bet a bunch of people have done so with success. I'd also guess others have tried to do so and have had less success. Experience taking people through LP, seeing where they start to fail there, how hard they work to really finish it vs giving up when they feel it starts to get hard (which for most people is well before it actually needs to end; and for a tiny minority of people, is after they should have already ended it), and a bunch more things is really needed to evaluate and adjust accordingly.