High Bar Squat and Deload Questions

[David McClelland]

I'm 46, 5'9", 200 lbs at I'd estimate around 25% bodyfat.

I started SS on Nov 10 of last year, (on a Friday because I just couldn't wait til a Monday to get started) which puts me at roughly 10 weeks of training or 2 1/2 months.

In that time I've achieved the following (weight in lbs);

11/10/17 - 1/18/18
Bodyweight: 170 - 200
Squat: 95 - 255
Deadlift: 135 - 260
Bench Press: 115 - 180
Press: 65 - 125
Chin Ups: 80 - 42.5 (on machine allowing weighted assist aka lower is better)

I started missing reps on my squats about 3 work outs ago and the reasons are twofold.

1) My shoulders are extremely inflexible and now that the weight has gotten heavy I cannot squat without extreme pain in my shoulders, biceps, elbows and even down into my forearms. I don't want to get into form/grip/technique because I've read, studied, researched and tried it all which didn't work at all and for right now I'm switching to high bar squat because I have to anyway just to relieve and heal my shoulders and arms. I have missed two complete upper body work outs because of this and just last night I was afraid to even pull with my arms to do deadlifts, so for the first time that got skipped too.

2) I just seem to have gotten very weak. When I say I missed reps I mean I wasn't able to do but 2 reps for the first set two work outs ago, and I missed 3 reps on the last set of my last work out last night with the same weight (255). This may be due to my diet slipping down in calories over the past couple of weeks, but it hasn't been anything major. It's not like I cut all my macros in half or anything. I do not count calories but I have always made sure to get in at least 170-200 g of protein and somewhere near twice that in carbs. Trust me fat is in there too in generous amounts. Obviously this worked as you can see from my weight gain and LP success. I plan to correct this slip ASAP though. My sleep has also been adequate. In SS it says that there are two types of deloads. The extreme deload is in response to someone who is missing a lot of reps due to accumulated fatigue and other factors such as missed calories and/or lack of rest, which I'm just guessing is me. I have no problem doing that, so it's what I'm going to do. I may even have to take the rest of this week off to help heal my arms and just start back Monday. We'll see how they feel tomorrow.

Here's my questions.

1) Since I'm simultaneously deloading in a major way and switching to high bar squats, would it be safe to start high bar with the same weights as if I were continuing low bar? I know how to do high bar as that's what I did all my life before SS, so it won't be rocket science. I'm just trying to be safe as I switch to a variation from what got me this strong and I don't want to detrain/deload too much.

2) Nothing has pleased me more about this whole thing than the meat and fantastic posture I've developed on my back. I don't want to sacrifice this, nor do I want to sacrifice my deadlift progression, so I'm considering a good ancillary exercise to give my lower back, glutes and hamstrings what they're missing with the high bar squat. In SS I've read about the RDL, SLDL and Good Mornings. SLDL looks like the easiest to execute and hardest to screw up, but I'll learn to do RDL if that's what is better. I read Mark tell someone on here that was switching to high bar just to keep his program the same otherwise, but I've read everywhere else low bar squat helps deadlifts. Suggestions on adding anything right now or wait until progress stalls on DL?

3) How often should I do these supplemental exercises? As a 46 yr old I'm not doing power cleans as was suggested to me by certain SS coaches so I simply do chin ups Mon/Fri and deadlifts once per week on Wednesday. This worked out very well with the low bar squat 3x's per week.

[lou t]

I switched to HBS after shoulder surgery. I just can't get my shoulder to get in position.

I loved LBBS, I did really well with a 387lb @ bw 163lbs(good for a record). Shameless plug I know.

I wouldn't start HBBS with the same weight as LBBS. LBBS uses more hips, hams and glutes than HBBS. but it doesn't mean that you are not using these muscles with HBBS, just not to the same degree.

The day or 2 after a squat session my ass, hams, quads are all sore. so i know they are being worked. no doubt LBBS will put the stress on these areas more. how much more...who the fuck knows and why should you care?

squat anyway you can.

when I was competing in powerlifting, I did RDL's. Also 2" paused off the floor dead lifts, rack pulls, 2" deficit deadlifts. I rarely did SLDL

I did RDL's once a week usually in the 6-8 rep range for sets. My program was based on RPE (rate of perceived exertion) so i can't give you specific sets.

just get under the bar

[TurtleBack]

1) Did you move to the advanced novice phase yet? Seems like the next step here based on your numbers and missing reps. Deload, build back up to where you were, go advanced novice progression.
Go see an SSC about your low bar grip.

2) Keep the pulling the same as SS. You can also try Mon: chins, Wed: Deads, Fri: Rows.
Fix your low bar squat. I very much recommend seeing an SSC. A lot of people give up on the low bar to easy because of similar issues that can be solved with a coach.

3) See answer 2.

[The Flush]

Have you changed to a light squat day in the middle of your week?

I started the same day that you did and am near the same weights as you, although I am slightly older (50), taller (6'1"), and a lot heavier (265). My SSC told me to make my middle day a light day (80-85% of first day) to provide more recovery while still providing enough stress. Maybe you need more recovery between squat days (2 days off between every session) or skip squats on that light day.

As far as the shoulders go, I have similar issues too due to an old injury and age. I get pain in my left shoulder due to the injury and in my right elbow due to all the normal grip issues and thoracic flexion (high elbows) that are frequently discussed here. I force myself to do daily shoulder stretches (Horn, dislocations, etc) and have added behind the neck presses to my squat warmup. They seem to help and my pain, which might not not be as severe as yours, is bearable within a few hours usually. My SSC also helped me with getting my grip corrected which I think helped a lot. An in person session can fix a lot of issues with tactile feedback that is much harder to figure out online. I haven't tried Rips chin-up pin firing tendinitis cure, but you might consider that as well.

[David McClelland]

I really appreciate all the responses! Given my age, how far along I've come in the squat and how long it's been (not quite 3 months, but almost) I actually did wonder if I was getting very close to having to switch to something more advanced.

From what I've been reading the HB squat seems to be about 30 lbs less than the LB in general, so that's what I'm going to estimate where I'm at. So I'm going to start at 10% below 225 (255 LB - 30 = 225, 10% lower is 202.5). I'm going to start with warm ups just short of a work set and then stop, as is advised in PP (I thought it was SS but was mistaken). From there I'll progress up again as advised. Since I did attempt a press and failed that before I could even get to a working set, I'm just going to deload on all my exercises and go back up.

I'm torn on trying to go back to the same amount of LP I was doing for squats or going ahead and going more advanced with adding in a light day, but I guess how I feel will dictate that?

I totally get what you guys are saying about fixing my LB issues. I really like the LBBS and really hate to do this. I wouldn't be switching right now if not absolutely required. I will be looking for a SSC coach in the future and try to get some good quality in person training.

[David McClelland]

Oh and as far as ancillary exercises I think I'll try adding in RDLs and alternate them with deadlifts, which would put me at doing deadlifts at only once every 2 weeks, but bumping my work sets for deadlift to 2 sets is possible. This sounds really great as I always felt I had more gas in the tank for another set for my deadlifts after only one set. This would give me supplemental work and also the same amount of work for the DL. A win win!! This is was suggested in PP when switching to more advanced novice.

I guess the timing just worked out perfectly for all of this.

[timelinex]

You don't have to add anything to accommodate the squat change. No RDL's or anything else. That will eat up your already limited recovery resources at the end of LP.

I was in a very similar position to you and I'll share my experiences and thoughts on your situation:

1. I stopped LBBS at 285 and started HBBS up at around 235. It's better to start low and then make bigger jumps at first (10 or 15 pounds depending on how easy). So you starting at 200 is a good idea. It's a different enough movement that getting used to it will take some time. Likely you will probably be able to go something like 200,215,225,230,235,etc..

2. Definitely add a middle light day immediately.

3. When i was in my LP, within a week of me stopping the weight gain, the LP came to a grinding halt. Literally everything stalled. Don't underestimate how important the weight gain portion of the LP is once the weight starts getting heavy. If you stall again and don't want to keep gaining weight, it's just time to move onto intermediate programming.

4. Your deadlift will be just fine with HBBS. It's relatively low compared to you squat. So unless the low disparity is because of anthropometry, you probably have alot more room for improvement. You can deload all the other lifts, but don't deload the deadlift if you don't have to.

5. I ended up letting my shoulders rest by reseting and starting HBBS for a few weeks. Then working on my thoracic extension and shoulder mobility. Eventually I started LBBS again in my intermediate programming, but 3x a week still hit my shoulders too hard. Even with better thoracic extension and shoulder mobility. What started working for me is to LBBS 1x a week and HBBS the other 2x. This works out because usually intermediate programming only has you squatting really heavy 1x a week and the other 2x are either lighter or a variation.

[David McClelland]

Hey timelinex, I was really contemplating your post, as well as the others.

When you say add in a light day, is that all I should do and just for squats (for starters)?

I'm just now starting to really get into studying intermediate programming and while before it was pretty simply going to be follow the Texas Method as in PP, I've been listening to what other SSCs have to say and they all say something different. Most of them say the cookie cutter method in PP is not for me as an older guy, while some of them say to ditch it altogether (Jordan). It's getting pretty confusing hearing them all say what to do now, and there are hours and hours of discussion on it.

Simply adding in a light day for squat/the rest of the movements worked for you guys for a while?

[Dalton Clark]

the light day is typically only used for the squat since the press frequency is every other workout and deadlifts tend to drop in frequency as well. I went from 280 to 360 for 3 sets of 5 as a result of adding the light day. It will keep you going for a while.

At 46 years of age, you are definitely not someone who should try Texas Method in either its vanilla version or its 4-day. Look into Andy Baker's materials (Strength and Mass over 40 has a lot of positive comments) and general HLM templates if you aren't a fan of Dr. Feigenbaum's The Bridge program.

Believe it or not, there are a whole slew of viable ways of programming intermediates. While the novice progression works for everybody, not every intermediate program is going to work for any given individual. Dr. Feigenbaum's advice is good, Andy Baker's advice is good, Coach Reynolds has solid advice. It all hinges around how well a trainee responds to volume vs intensity work. Some guys are able to continue progressing with less volume at higher intensity for a longer period of time (TM). Others require the addition of exercise variation sooner or more volume sooner (The Bridge). Neither of these are 'better' programs generally but one style might be your preference or work better for you. In the novice program, you only modify one variable for the most part. Once you get into the realm of being able to change exercise selection, sets, rep counts, intensity, blah blah blah it can get complicated. However, it seems that many people take a side on intermediate style programming when really all of them can work and have been shown to work. A lot of an individual coach's preference (and bias) has to do with what works for them.

[David McClelland]

Yea I've been doing a lot more reading and listening and have already determined Jordan's advice isn't for me. NOT a fan when I read about his 8 week program. I've been listening to Matt Reynold's talks on Youtube for some time and in going back to one of their talks I found where they're talking about exactly what I was questioning, just backing off the squat in the middle of the week. It's here;

YouTube

I also like their advice on pressing. For example 125 lbs on press day for 3x5, then 125 for 5x3 next press day, then 5x5 (which could play out as 5,5,5,4,2) for the same weight the next. By next session you're ready to make around a 2.5 lb jump. I've been using microplates now for some time on both bench press and press but haven't been a huge fan since plates in my gym get moved around a lot and I don't think weighing and marking plates would work too well there. So I may switch to that advice as well.

I want to milk LP for all I can before going full intermediate, one of the reasons is because I obviously have a lot more to learn before I'm comfortable making my own program.