High Bar -Low Bar Programming issues

[Bahadur]

Im a 36 yr old trainee who had moderate success with the Novice routine- with the exception of my squat. The numbers are too embarrassing to post here, but most of my issues came from piss-poor flexibility with limited my depth in addition to causing rip-roaring biceps tendinitis which then forced me to constantly deload my squats.

Decided to see a strength coach (who attended SEVERAL Rippetoe Certs, BTW) who took a look at my anthrometry and shocking inflexibility and decided that high-bar squats, as opposed to low bar squats are a more realistic exercise for me. Now, obviously I've read the books, and the articles and realize the superiority of the low bar squat. This guy is no dummy; he is a coach who really is dedicated to Olympic lifting and active in the Crossfit community (perhaps there is his bias towards the high bar?).
I've decided I will try the high bar squat, although depth is a major problem. I have a job where I sit in a chair all day long, sometime hours on end without even standing up, so my depth on squatting suffers due to hamstring and flexor immobility.

1. Have any of you had success using the high bar to train for better ROM, to be carried over the low bar eventually?
2. I wonder how doing high bar squats will eventually improve my shoulder flexibility to allow for the low bar carry. Any thoughts?

Lastly, if I have yet to exhaust my linear progression on squats (a given) but am approaching 'intermediate' status on some of my other lifts, has anyone had experience creating a program that allows for linear progression in 1 area, and intermediate programming everywhere else (continuing on a novice for squats, intermediate for press/bench/deadlift)?

Thanks for any input....

[Campbell]

When i first started i couldnt get my shoulders back far enough so had to high-bar and my numbers were embarrassing also. What i did was every time i went to the gym i did 30 or 40 shoulder dislocations (you could even do these at home with a broom) and after a few months i was able to get the low bar. Just keep stretching and trying to do low bar, you will get there eventually.

Since changing to low-bar i have put about 30kg (66lb) on my squat. I still had some bicep tendinitis so on the advice of a friend i started doing some curls which are apparently a good prehab exercise for it and it seems to be staying away since.

[metermanja]

Im a 36 yr old trainee who had moderate success with the Novice routine- with the exception of my squat. The numbers are too embarrassing to post here, but most of my issues came from piss-poor flexibility with limited my depth in addition to causing rip-roaring biceps tendinitis which then forced me to constantly deload my squats.

Decided to see a strength coach (who attended SEVERAL Rippetoe Certs, BTW) who took a look at my anthrometry and shocking inflexibility and decided that high-bar squats, as opposed to low bar squats are a more realistic exercise for me. Now, obviously I've read the books, and the articles and realize the superiority of the low bar squat. This guy is no dummy; he is a coach who really is dedicated to Olympic lifting and active in the Crossfit community (perhaps there is his bias towards the high bar?).
I've decided I will try the high bar squat, although depth is a major problem. I have a job where I sit in a chair all day long, sometime hours on end without even standing up, so my depth on squatting suffers due to hamstring and flexor immobility.

1. Have any of you had success using the high bar to train for better ROM, to be carried over the low bar eventually?
2. I wonder how doing high bar squats will eventually improve my shoulder flexibility to allow for the low bar carry. Any thoughts?

Lastly, if I have yet to exhaust my linear progression on squats (a given) but am approaching 'intermediate' status on some of my other lifts, has anyone had experience creating a program that allows for linear progression in 1 area, and intermediate programming everywhere else (continuing on a novice for squats, intermediate for press/bench/deadlift)?

Thanks for any input....

Sounds like my situation. I have had chronic elbow pain starting from when my squat was 185lb till when i finally stopped low bar when my squat was 285lb. The pain was due to a pre existing injury in the elbow, which got aggravated by low bar squats. Doctor asked me to stop all weight training. The hell with that. I switched to high bar as of yesterday.

1. Have any of you had success using the high bar to train for better ROM, to be carried over the low bar eventually?

HB Squats are better than no squats. you will have substantial carryover both ways (HB - LB). You will not be able to move as much weight with the HB position, due to reduced hamstring involvement.

2. I wonder how doing high bar squats will eventually improve my shoulder flexibility to allow for the low bar carry. Any thoughts?

HB position wont improve shoulder flexibility. Shrugging hard to position the bar on your traps makes your neck thicker though, if its any consolation.

Lastly, if I have yet to exhaust my linear progression on squats (a given) but am approaching 'intermediate' status on some of my other lifts, has anyone had experience creating a program that allows for linear progression in 1 area, and intermediate programming everywhere else (continuing on a novice for squats, intermediate for press/bench/deadlift)?

it is common that one lift stalls before the others. Just incorporate an intermediate program for that lift while continuing novice on the others.

[gzt]

1. I like high bar squats a lot. I was doing them for a while this spring while my elbow was recovering from doing low bars with bad form. I've fixed my low bar form and my elbow is fine now, so I'm back to low bar. But high bar had a lot of carryover, IMO. I think it highly depends on how you do the high bar squat and your anthropometry. I really "felt it" in the hamstrings, which isn't a reliable guide to anything. I think it got my legs a little more flexible, yes.
2. High bar really doesn't demand much of your shoulder. You have to work on your shoulder flexibility outside the context of your squats.

[jameson]

I personally like the HB squat better for training purposes. It just feels better to me and has better carryover. It only took me two weeks to match my best LB squat with my Oly squat. I could type several reasons why the Oly squat is a good choice but just read the link below. Perryman also links to a well-known Pendlay response on HB as well. I think there are just as many arguments for HB as there is for LB.

http://www.ampedtraining.com/strength/highbar-squat-underrated/

[Bahadur]

Nice link. He has some interesting thoughts and points.
I guess for guys like me with such limited ROM its very frustrating watching squat videos of people doing both HB and LB squats with perfect form. I'm not really married to either one honestly, I just want to be able to squat with impeccable form. At this point whether thats LB vs HB, I don't care, as long as my hips/low back allow it.

Welp, gotta run. The foam roller and moments of sheer agony await!

[blowdpanis]

I would often show people both when I was a trainer, and let them pick which they preferred. I don't really buy the argument that one is particularly superior to the other, given a similar stance width.

Low bar squat will be slightly more hamstrings-y, thus allowing you to lift slightly heavier weight. But the ROM of the involved muscles will be slightly greater for the high bar position, and this may matter.

It's also probably worth noting that I could never get a narrow-ish stance low bar squat to quite look or feel right (despite doing it for years), whereas this isn't a problem with high bar. I think low bar, due to the nature of the movement, almost demands a little wider stance, comparatively speaking, to make the mechanics look/feel right. As such, this relates to the above point about ROM possibly mattering when you're looking at a strengthening/transfer effect.

[Greg C]

Funny you should mention this. There is a recent article by none other than Bill Starr written for CF Journal (may 2010, The Quick Lifts: Start Here) about beginner Oly programming where he specifically calls out High Bar over Low bar, quote:

"Back squats need to be done with the bar set high on your traps and not low on the back as many powerlifters prefer. You can’t lean at all on the back squats if you want the power gained to be utilized in the clean and snatch."

I will not even pretend to understand why (I'm a mech eng, not a trainer or even all that experienced lifting), but Rip swears by the guy, and I tend to trust that kind of opinion.

Interesting, FWIW.

[blowdpanis]

A decent study on the subject (in that they used competitive weightlifters and powerlifters, though the sample size isn't awesome):

http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Ab...during.10.aspx

The weightlifters had the load more equally distributed between hip and knee, whereas the powerlifters put relatively more load on the hip joint. The thigh muscular activity was slightly higher for the powerlifters.

[Gary Gibson]

Sinners, all of you.