Doug Brignole, "Biomechanics expert", says that Dips don't hit pecs and triceps

[Bigkarl]

I recently started dips intending to replace the bench press(shoulder issues) but I found this video where Doug Brignole says that the force is mostly on the front delt instead of triceps and pectorals. Am I wasting my time doing dips as a replacement? And if so, what is a good alternative?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh4wbVVWVm4

[youtube]Kh4wbVVWVm4[/youtube]

[OCG]

The elbows extend. The triceps are used. Now, whether it has much carry over to bench pressing for you is something you'll have to find out for yourself.

[Dastardly]

I dont feel like wasting time watching the video. But sounds like high caliber BS.

Depending on grip used, dips can be one of the most intense pec or tricep exercises you can do. Wide grip for pecs, narrow for triceps. Sure there is some delt involved, but so what?

Are pullovers/skullcrushers a useless triceps exercise because they have lat involvement? Are squats a useless quadriceps exercise because they have back involvement?

[Bigkarl]

I dont feel like wasting time watching the video. But sounds like high caliber BS.

Depending on grip used, dips can be one of the most intense pec or tricep exercises you can do. Wide grip for pecs, narrow for triceps. Sure there is some delt involved, but so what?

Are pullovers/skullcrushers a useless triceps exercise because they have lat involvement? Are squats a useless quadriceps exercise because they have back involvement?

he said that the natural path for the pectoral muscle is to bring the arms "from the outside, inward" and that the dip doesn't do that. Next he said there is only slight involvement of the triceps and that pushdowns are better for that purpose.

[Dastardly]

Holy shit, just watched some of the video. The guy is either extremely stupid or intentionally misleading viewers.

He claims dips are useless for pecs because the plane of movement must be parallel to direction of muscle fibres.

Well anyone can see that that action of pushing with arms on absolutely relies on pectorals as the primary mover, it is what brings the humerus forwards. The movement uses pectorals in full range of motion absolutely in the direction of muscle fibres.

But this "direction" thing is not even necessary any way as even overhead pressing works the chest, even behind neck pressing would work the chest. Due to the action of antagonistic muscle groups in the other side of your body. They just wont allow maximum loading, whilst dips and bench press absolutely will and dips will use a fuller range of motion which is superior for hypertrophy.

[Bigkarl]

So is he full of shit?

[veryhrm]

Mmm.... i'd say he's got something, but it's more applicable to bb type isolation exercises than it is to more complex movements.

His 2nd argument 1st: The thing about the triceps not working because the forearm is vertical and thus parallel to gravity (instead of perpendicular). If that were the case then presses, bench press and push-ups wouldn't work the triceps either since the forearm is also mostly vertical in those movements. Similarly pull-ups and chins wouldn't work the biceps.

None of these moves isolate the biceps/triceps all that well, but it's a big stretch to say they don't get worked.

And now his 1st argument: The parallel / perpendicular thing... yeah, flyes definitely isolate the pecs better than dips, but any movement where the muscle goes from long to short is going to use that muscle (what OCG said).

The pecs are definitely involved in bringing your upper arm from behind you to in front of you. Their contribution does seem to go down as you raise your arm, but that's not the dip motion.

[Dastardly]

he said that the natural path for the pectoral muscle is to bring the arms "from the outside, inward" and that the dip doesn't do that. Next he said there is only slight involvement of the triceps and that pushdowns are better for that purpose.

The action of Outside>Inwards and Forwards of the humerus are the same thing when it comes to Pectoral use. Also what exactly does he think locks out the elbows after each rep? Go try some dips with a narrowish grip and tell me it doesn't maximally challenge the triceps.

With push downs loading is limited by abdominal strength, grip and bodyweight. You can easily become strong enough that they are way too awkward to do. And why choose an isolation exercise when dips give you more bang for your buck?

Look ad old school Bodybuilders like Marvin Eder who used Dips as his primary exercise. He was also incredibly strong, having done feats like single arm press a 220lb man while standing on the beach at coney island.

And John Grimek who liked to avoid direct training of the chest with chest intensive exercises like benching/dips and preferred overhead pressing and curls for upper body. He like many others believed it was too easy to overdevelop the chest.

Read here about Grimek; http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports...4/IGH0504w.pdf
He performed some of the most impressive strength feats as well as being a very successful bodybuilder.

[Bigkarl]

The action of Outside>Inwards and Forwards of the humerus are the same thing when it comes to Pectoral use. Also what exactly does he think locks out the elbows after each rep? Go try some dips with a narrowish grip and tell me it doesn't maximally challenge the triceps.

With push downs loading is limited by abdominal strength, grip and bodyweight. You can easily become strong enough that they are way too awkward to do. And why choose an isolation exercise when dips give you more bang for your buck?

Look ad old school Bodybuilders like Marvin Eder who used Dips as his primary exercise. He was also incredibly strong, having done feats like single arm press a 220lb man while standing on the beach at coney island.

And John Grimek who liked to avoid direct training of the chest with chest intensive exercises like benching/dips and preferred overhead pressing and curls for upper body. He like many others believed it was too easy to overdevelop the chest.

Read here about Grimek; http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports...4/IGH0504w.pdf
He performed some of the most impressive strength feats as well as being a very successful bodybuilder.

i like doing dips so far. I can do sets of 6 at bodyweight(I'm 205 lbs) and i have a belt i use for chin ups so i can load it if need be. but this guy said there isn't much pec involvement. i just want to know if there is enough to justify it as a main upper body exercise. If not I could try dumbbell benching or maybe the hammer strength chest press..

[Meshuggah]

The only thing dips ever did for me was cause shoulder pain.