Stretch reflex in press and RDL.

[ludwig23]

What I'm getting is:

"Stretch reflex is a good thing. It is an inherent part of the squat and the bench, and it helps you lift more, which in turn makes you stronger. Which is a good thing."

So:
If we can press and DLs in such a way that uses the stretch reflex, we can press/pull more, which is a good thing.

Conclusion:
For the press, we should jerk/ push-press the bar up (or overhead squat it from the rack) to our top position, then count the first rep from there. So the reps are done "down then up", making use of stretch reflex.

For the DLs. We can't do DL with stretch reflex because it's a deadlift. But the RDL is a similar-looking movement but making use of the stretch reflex. Obviously the distance the bar has to travel is shorter, but we can compensate that with heavier weights.

This may sound asinine but I don't get why we're not doing it this way, after re-reading the RDL section a couple times. If the point of the DL is to pick up heavy stuff off the floor the hard way, why don't we squat that way (i.e. set the pins low and start the partial squat from bottom)?

Thanks for your time and sorry in advance for the silly question.

[Michael Wolf]

1. Because we can press more weight using the press 2.0 than using a stretch reflex from the top. I have done and coached both extensively. The Press 2.0, once learned, is stronger. So: same ROM, same muscle mass, but more weight = better primary movement.

2. Because we can deadlift a lot more than we can RDL, we use the quads in a DL more than an RDL, and as you said, the ROM is greater. More muscle mass, more ROM, more weight = better primary movement.

[flobbadob]

Hi Michael slightly related to the initial question (regarding press). I have been finding it much easier to complete sets when breathing at the top. Would you say it's okay to continue or should I try and learn the technique of breathing at the bottom.

For reference only dealing with about 37.5kg at 58kg body weight.

Thanks!

[Michael Wolf]

If you're doing Press 2.0, it's awfully hard to do correctly when breathing at the top. It makes a lot more sense to breathe at the bottom, and that's how we teach it.

If you're using the stretch reflex, then yes, breathing at the top is a viable option.

[flobbadob]

I guess I'm referring to stretch reflex, when you say press 2.0 what do you mean exactly? The version taught in the latest version of the book? Thanks

[Michael Wolf]

Yes. We've been doing it that way for nearly five years now.

[ludwig23]

The Press 2.0, once learned, is stronger.

This hasn't been my experience but my press is still all over the place so I will trust you on this one. However, I want to ask you this: is the press 2.0 differ from previous version in that it make use of the hip movement AND it starts from the bottom position (rather than no hip, spinal extension, and breathe from the top?) Can't we have the best of both world and have both forward hip movement AND stretch reflex? Aha. This would probably warrant breathing at the top.


Pardon for any silly-ness. Thanks for your time.

[Michael Wolf]

Good for a chuckle but it's really not too silly and is a worthwhile thing to think about.

And I have.

Theoretically, yes. But the ability for a mere mortal to do this correctly, with the split-second proper timing, consistently from rep to rep is astoundingly low. My colleague Brent Carter did it once, filmed it, and sent it to me, and we jokingly called it the Press 3.0 - where the first rep is done 2.0, and the remainder are done in the same style but with the timing of the reach done to also catch the stretch reflex of lowering the bar, AND using a double layback. But he was using 135. I doubt anyone could reproduce the movement consistently and correctly with working weights, and one small mistake would botch up the whole set.

Considering that the first rep has to be with done off the shoulders anyway*, and all the confounding factors to doing the above correctly, the 2.0 makes sense.

*I'm aware some people have racks that would allow them to unrack it in the lockout position and do every rep with a stretch reflex from the top. This isn't a "wrong" way to do it if you're only pressing for fun, general health, or as an assistance movement, though I would argue it isn't the most effective way based on our criteria. But if you want to do the The Press: the way we contest it at Strength Meets, you need to do at least the first rep from the shoulders. Similar to how you can do a set of five DL with the last 4 being touch-n-go. The downsides aren't as clear cut with the press, but the idea is similar.

[ludwig23]

though I would argue it isn't the most effective way based on our criteria.

With the difficulty of doing it this way for a novice in mind, I want to get just hypothetical. Please elaborate: say we can train someone productively using this way, then it uses probably the same amount of mass (if not more. I don't see how it can be less), moving through the same ROM (again, I don't see how it can be less), but allowing us to use more weight, does it not make the trainee stronger?

I'm talking about a trainee whose goal is general strength, not necessary lifting in Strength Meets or just mere numbers (like ultra wide grip on benching in normal PL meets, i guess). Though I could argue that getting stronger this way can translate to getting stronger on 2.0, just like getting stronger on normal squat would make partial squat starting from the bottom stronger, but that's a horse that has been beaten to death on the board. And in the case of TnG deadlift, the weight bounces of the floor, so the lifter exert much less effort. Akin to bouncing off the chest in benching, I guess, and so I can't really how it is similar.

Back to reality, my press 2.0 session tomorrow it is.

Thank you for your time. I meant it.

[Michael Wolf]

Most novices can learn the movement reasonably enough in the first session, and be pretty good at it within a few weeks. It's true that they could probably lift more on Day 1 using the stretch reflex, due to the lack of technique learning curve but three weeks or four later, they'll be lifting more had they bothered to learn the 2.0 on Day 1. So more weight with that version of the movement, more of the body involved in the movement, without diminishing the work of the prime movers in the press, and done in a way that will allow you to press in any situation: at a meet, in any rack, from a clean. Many advantages.