In Defense of the Power Clean: Sully

[Mark Rippetoe]

YouTube

I'm posting this one separately, because I think it's very important to think about.

[Dillon Spencer]

I loved this episode for a couple of reasons. When the community is so often attacked as being "dogmatic" it's nice to hear a bit of intelligent debate between coaches. Very enjoyable to listen too.

Also, I just like power cleaning. I like doing it, I want to be good at it, and I'd like to be able to coach others to do it. My technique remains a work in progress, but this episode encouraged me to keep at it. When you see how many strong people leave it out of their programs, it can be easy to wonder if there is something better (or at least easier to learn) to plug into that slot, seeing as how the only sport I participate in is beer league softball (although I like to attribute all my dingers this year to SS, in particular the power clean) and I have no intention of taking up Olympic lifting. I finished this episode with a renewed commitment to improving my power clean.

Great listen!

[Scaldrew]

Quick question, how do you programme cleans into your strength training routine if they don't contribute (a lot) to strength development? Do you do something like: heavy set of fahve deadlifts, cleans, and then lighter deadlift sets for volume to drive progress on the heavy deadlift? What if you split up the deadlift in rack pull and halting deadlifts alternating weekly. Do you then also do cleans alongside another lighter pull/heavy set of deadlifts?

I ask from the desire to do cleans, and the wish to believe that cleans don't drive (already heavy) deadlifts up. If this is true, it seems like cleans are almost the first to go when strength is the goal in fear of excessive pulling volume.

[TommyGun]

Interesting debate, really good nuanced arguments there. But Sully writes sci-if? Really? Being a MD and PhD is not enough. Has to be a SSC and then open his own gym and YouTube channel. And writes a great strength book.

But the sci-if just makes me feel like a lazy ass uncreative failure.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Quick question, how do you programme cleans into your strength training routine if they don't contribute (a lot) to strength development?

I do them exactly as described in SS and PP (and BBrx) for the novice phase. For Masters who don't/won't/can't clean, I'm increasingly using a light deadlift day.

For intermediates, I continue to program the clean the same until the lift starts to go stale. After that, I'm a fan of working up to a heavy single, and then triples or doubles at a back-off percentage, usually around 75-80%, with short rests (2-3 min max).

Do you do something like: heavy set of fahve deadlifts, cleans, and then lighter deadlift sets for volume to drive progress on the heavy deadlift? What if you split up the deadlift in rack pull and halting deadlifts alternating weekly. Do you then also do cleans alongside another lighter pull/heavy set of deadlifts?

As always, it depends on the program. I don't encounter such a scenario often in my population. Right now, I myself am running a 5-day program that combines a heavy-light split with a dedicated day for clean+jerk and snatches along with bag work and prowler. Basically O-lifts + conditioning. It's working for now.

I ask from the desire to do cleans, and the wish to believe that cleans don't drive (already heavy) deadlifts up.

I don't think they drive deadlifts, but I do consider them to valuable pulling work. My cleans aren't quite half my dead, but I still feel the fatigue in my low back and lats the day after. I don't think anybody can say there's not enough pulling volume in my program, between heavy dead day, light dead day, and O-lift day. It works for me. YMMV.

If this is true, it seems like cleans are almost the first to go when strength is the goal in fear of excessive pulling volume.

Depends on how much you want to do cleans. They have value, but that value is predicated upon your training goals. I fit my own three criteria, the first of which is that I really enjoy them. So I train them. YMMV.

[Scaldrew]

Interesting stuff. Thanks, Coach Dr. Sully.

I'm currently not doing cleans till my deadlift goes up a bit. My clean kept stalling at around the same weight and I didn't like ending otherwise good training sessions on mediocre and sometimes poor cleans. Bugs me still cos I really like cleaning. Doing cleans, that is.

[David Kirkham]

For intermediates, I continue to program the clean the same until the lift starts to go stale. After that, I'm a fan of working up to a heavy single, and then triples or doubles at a back-off percentage, usually around 75-80%, with short rests (2-3 min max).

Doc Sully,

Can you please explain just a bit on this? Why short rest periods? Or—Does the set include the heavy single and then the back offs within the 2-3 min?

I find that I am agreeing with you on your observations in the podcast. We intermediate masters are a very rare breed. There is very little knowledge on us because there aren’t many of us. I’m quite grateful for all you have brought to light in this arena. Love your book!

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Doc Sully,

Can you please explain just a bit on this? Why short rest periods? Or—Does the set include the heavy single and then the back offs within the 2-3 min?

I find that I am agreeing with you on your observations in the podcast. We intermediate masters are a very rare breed. There is very little knowledge on us because there aren’t many of us. I’m quite grateful for all you have brought to light in this arena. Love your book!

Thanks. Here's a typical recent CJ session:

Split Clean and Jerk (most non-stupid masters would just power clean.)

Warm up to "heavy" (for me) single: 165x1. (Warmups: 45x2 hang clean; 105x2; 125x2; 135x1; 150x1. Rest 4-5 min after last warmup single.)

After target heavy single, rest 5 min.

Then: 135x2x3, with 3 min rests in between. (I know, a little more than 80%, but easy to load, so....)

These aren't heavy squats or deads. Long rests just aren't needed. If I was cleaning 225 or 300, that would be a different story, but that story will not be a movie starring me. Alas.

Also: I do doubles, not triples, because it's clean and jerk, not power clean. And I do 3 sets, not 5, because before I did cleans I did snatches.

But you get the idea. The "volume work" drives up the heavy singles, the heavy singles pull up the volume loads. Comfort's work suggests that the power output at the lighter loads is actually greater--speed on the bar and better form/mechanics offsets the offset, if you will. Or at least that's the theory. And that's where I first got the idea, although I'm not 100% convinced of Comfort's conclusion. But it turned out to be a good programming approach, for whatever reason.

Works for me, and helps me make slow painful progress on my rather pathetic Old Man O-Lifts. For now. YMMV.

[Eric Schexnayder]

Is the concentric contraction of the trapezius muscle not a worthwhile benefit of the power clean? Perhaps as an ancillary exercise similar to barbell shrugs?

I love doing cleans, but I usually dread the day after them because my traps are usually quite sore.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Probably not compared to the isometric load of the deadlift, which will be double the weight on the traps in a clean for most people.