dual factor questions

[science]

Hi Rip,
sorry for posting this thread again,but somehow i got no anwer on the other forum section:
Perhaps you can help me out:

In the last time the dual factor theory catched my eye.
I am currently on your 5x5 version of PP and enjoying the results. (advanced trainee)
Cause out of a injury in my elbow last week,I am currently more reading than training-so i had enough time to read over 1 week all dual factor related articles which exists and reread PP on that.

The basic concept is clear and i thought of connecting it with changing set rep paramters to avoid adaption and include the law of variation.Its thought for a phase to gain some mass-altough I am NOT a bodybuilder,but i need(or want) some more meat on my bones.

One thing I am not aware about,is if you also(or in general) need loading phases like in 5x5 where you begin light and increase the weight,or if the longer deloads after a volume phase like suggested in the doal f.theory will be enough to jump right in the heavy weights again?
The "climbing" back to the heavier loads seems like a beginning delaod,which slowly turns in the loading weeks,through the light begining but steady increasing weight.
my idea would be to load,deload and load hard again.

Example:

loading:4x10 2min rest whole body 2x the week.(I think for 3 times fatigue will raise to fast and with different paramters in the week the concept will get too weird)I start with a weight where the last rep on the 4th set is near failure. so my 4x10RPM if you like.

After f.ex. the second week of hopefully progress in reps,weight whatever I notice,that I get weeker (fatigue)-so deload lets say to cut the volume in half and the weights about 10%:

4x5 rest as needed with 10%of my best 4x10rpm.

I deload lets say for 2 weeks.

Now I take a new parameter like 5x6 and 3 min rest.
I again start with my 5x6rpm weight and try to increase it again for long as possible(if its not possible the deload was too short and i delaoad again for 3 weeks)-perhaps again 2 weeks,then i notice fatigue again.deload with 5x3 -10% of the weight used.after the deload i choose again a new paramter etc.
The exericises(bench,press) i remain and don?t change of course.

will set up a specific example for that:


bench 100kg 10RPM

3x8 1 min rest with a load that is near failure on the last rep on the last set.lets say 85kg. so my 3x8rpm.


week1:
MO:85x 3x8

FR: 85x 3x9

weeks2:
MO:85x 3x10

FR:85x 3x10
ok i see i didn?t get stronger-one more try next week.

week3:
mo: 85x 10x9x9
ok overreached so deload:

50%volume and 10%less weight

week4:
MO:75x3x5

FR:75x3x5

week5:
try for a new paramter-lets see iff i am already recovered:
MO: 100 5x5 (failure on the last rep on the last set)
FR: 100x5x4
ok not recoverd-one week deload was too less-so still deload neccessary:

week6:
deload as above
week 7:
also

week 8:
new try:
MO 100 5x5(near failure on the last rep on the last set)
FR: 100 6x6
well done-recovered-now same way as above.


So the whole idea would be a dual factor based concept to manage fatigue with changing paramters for variation
/periodization.

comments on this?
science

[Mark Rippetoe]

I can't imagine why you didn't get an answer on the other forum. I'll defer this question to my programming adviser Andy Baker, because I don't know what the fuck you're talking about here.

[science]

ok,perhaps its weird- iam kind of creative in training.
so if i am allowed to,i would drop the question a bit different in another short and understandable phrase which will also solve the other questionsat least for me)

When following the dual factor theory you have weeks of fatigue and of fitness.
After some time fatigue gets greater so you have to deload to catch up.

Is it neccessary to increase slowly the load again (like beginning loading phase as on 5x5) or is it also possible to make a say3-4 week pure deload ( of a fixed weight for all 3-4 weeks fex.2x5 with 80%of your 5x5rpm) and then not increase but jump right into the heavy weights again.

hope this is more understandable
science

ps:who is andy baker?

[Mark Rippetoe]

I think you have a poor understanding of the dual-factor "theory", and you are using the term "theory" when you mean "program". Mr. Baker answers complicated programming questions for me due to time considerations and his greater levels of patience for these things, and the fact that he has not posted means that he is either 1.) gone or is 2.) out of patience.

[Keenan]

I believe Mr. Baker just had a kid this week.....

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Wow,
I came back to the board just in time for this little doozy. Wife had a baby last week so I was unable to alot much time for lengthy discussions on a internet message board about the science of lifting heavy things.

Ok Science,
First off, not trying to be a dick, but like Mark, I was having a very difficult time understanding what the fuck you were talking about and/or asking. It would probably be more helpful for those like yourself who have trouble with English to keep your posts very simple and to the point. Again, not trying to be a dick, but you will probably get better answers that way.

I agree with Mark that I think you are confusing the dual factory theory with a dual factor program. There is no "dual factor program". Dual factor refers to the fitness fatigue theory which is a fairly lengthy subject, and I am not qualified to write a dissertation on said subject here on this board.

To your more specific question (or at least what I think is your question):
When entering a loading phase of training, do you need to start light or can you start right away with PR level weights and continue to progress on those numbers throughout the whole loading block. Answer: probably not. If you can, then you probably aren't an advanced trainee. Let me lay it out for you and you can let me know if this is what you are asking:

Lets look a simple accumulation-intensification cycle as outlined in PP.
Lets assume a trainee has a 3 x 10 PR on his squat of 315. If this trainee begins another loading phase with 3 x 10 is he going to enter into the first week with 3 x 10 for 315. NO!! Instead, something like the following might be more realistic:

Week 1: 3 x 10 x 275
Week 2: 3 x 10 x 295
Week 3: 3 x 10 x 315
Week 4: 3 x 10 x 325-335

The point of this particular type of loading block is to accumulate volume and maybe set a PR at the end of the block, although setting PR's really doesn't become a huge priority until after a brief deload occurs and a peaking phase is entered into.

You also asked, I think, about changing set and rep parameters for the loading weeks. Yes, you can and should, depending on your goals.
There is nothing written in stone that says you must only train with 5 x 5, however if you are looking for general size and strength then this should probably be your base set and rep range.

Hope this helps.

Andy

[Quintus]

Maybe it's just a poor grasp of the language, but it really sounds like you don't understand the program you're talking about very well.

If you're an advanced lifter of the sort that would require a complex/long-cycle program like the one you're describing, then you should already know the answer to your question.

Being "creative in training" is not necessarily a virtue. Have you truly exhausted a basic progression and linear gains? If yes, what about a simple one week cycle intermediate progression? It seems to me that by the point in your athletic career that you actually require the complexity of a two month training cycle, you should have answered all the basic hows and whys looooong ago.

[science]

ok thanks,but i always found out of literature,that according to the theory to disrupt hoemostasis you need high workload.
After performance regresses cause of the cummulated fatigue, then (or short before it ike in your book) you cut volume to active rest but build up the weights again and let the body catch up and supercompensate.
MY question was only,if you always need to slowly build up the weights,or if it is possible to jump right into the heavy ones and make then a longer deload instead of ramping the weights up again

So instead of:
(100 is 4x10rpm)

1.week:85 4x10
2.week:90 4x10
3.week:95 4x10
4.week: 100 4x10
5.week: 102,5 4x10
6.week:105 4x10
7.week: delaod 95 4x5
8.week:100 4x5 etc.

you do:

1.week:100 4x10
2.week:102,5 4x10
3.week: 105 4x10
4.week: 105 4x9-ok overreached-deload:
5.week:95 4x5
6.week: delaod when needed
7.week: when needed
8.week: new paramter like 5x8 RPM
same way


SO the differnce is ramping up the weight in the first 4 weeks which are below your max.

The sense of the dft is fatigue and fitness.
_If fatigue overwhelmes fitness you deload to lt supercompensate it.

I think this priciple can be applied in many ways.
If fatigues comes after ramping up the weigths and working toward your max,or if not ramping up the weights makes no difference in the theory.(yes i have PP)

I want to try it that way,cause I want a mass phase and instead from jumping from a higher volume to a lower and PEAK on that, i want to rotate the higher schemes and avoid burning out with delaods as prescribed but NOT peak on them.

The phase is needed cause i personally want more mass AND i have to work out light for some weeks,because i have an inflammation on my elbow tendon and cannot work out with really heavy weights.

however,i am afraid you won?t get me.
so...?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Oh shit...

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Read this portion again from my last post:

"When entering a loading phase of training, do you need to start light or can you start right away with PR level weights and continue to progress on those numbers throughout the whole loading block? Answer: probably not. If you can, then you probably aren't an advanced trainee"

So the answer again is no to your question (as I loosely understand your question) - you should not start out the beginning of your loading phases with PR level weights in a cycle for an advanced trainee. If you were able to do this repeatedly with success then by definition you would not be an advanced trainee and an accumulation / intensification cycle would be more complexity than you need.