Rip vs. ReverseHypertrophy -- can someone explain when lower back rounding is OK?

[Symmetry]

In Rip's Q&A forum, some guy named ReverseHypertrophy is giving Rip a hard time because in one video Rip's student appears to be rounding his back at the bottom of his squat which rip ignores: http://vimeo.com/19736437 (see 8:04). There's also a video of Rip squatting where it looks like Rip's lower back is rounding at the bottom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCh4bm-lE2c (see 2:10).

I didn't want to ask in the other thread because Rip is clearly annoyed with the guy and is acting like he's the dumbest person ever. I am genuinely confused though, because to me it does look like both Rip's student and Rip are rounding their lower back at the bottom of their reps, and I thought this was dangerous. Can someone explain the difference between "acceptable rounding/butt wink" vs. unacceptable?

Rip mentions "the difference between anatomical spinal extension/an anatomically neutral spine and the appearance of the muscular low-back in extension", but what should we be looking for to see this?

[Kyle Schuant]

Anatomical spinal extension is the spine in its normal position when you're standing. The lower back has a slight curve forward and in.

A "straight" spine is something different. If the lower back is straight, the lumbar spine will actually be slightly flexed. In most cases that's okay. Greater flexion is not okay.

You need a bit of time watching people's backs as they lift. The deadlift is a good one to watch, as the lower back position is much more obvious than in the squat. When they go "chest up!" you'll see their lower back go into extension, so that it's much as in the standing position, curved forwards. When they begin the pull, often their lower back will go straight. That's usually okay. But if it flexes further then it becomes rounded - not okay.

Here are some examples.

First, the spine in anatomical extension (ie lower back curved in forwards)



Next, the spine in anatomically neutral extension. Not curved in as it would be when the guy's standing, but not so flexed as to be a problem for him.



Okay, now we have the spine flexing, as we go from one image to the next it gets worse.



Once you've got the idea of lower back position in the deadlift, you'll see things more easily in the squat. It's a matter of degrees. Lifting weights ain't ballet, but we want it to be safe and effective. A fully extended spine is safe and effective, a neutral spine is safe and effective, as you flex the spine more it becomes less safe and effective.

[jep6095]

It's always entertaining when the untrained troll eye tries to stir up shit, as we have in the above mentioned thread. In answer to this,

Can someone explain the difference between "acceptable rounding/butt wink" vs. unacceptable?

we've attempted to. Often.

In general, butt wink is a non-useful term unless you are a kitty cat closing it's butt hole often enough to appear as if winking at you. In the first video, Sammer's "back" is not rounding. His GLUTES (and I don't want to embarrass him but Sammer has killer glutes...just sayin') have the 'appearance' of 'rounding' due to the fact that he has large, useful glutes that are going just below parallel. His back stays locked in extension, even with an empty bar. Having watched him train, this stays in effect with much heavier weight. So in answer to your question, learn to identify what body parts are doing what and watch them progress through higher weights and stop being influenced by trolls. Unless you are one.

As for Rip's squats and the called out "2:10", when exactly do you see the back losing locked extension? I didn't see it. So share what you saw with the rest of us and we can go from there.

jp

[ReverseHypertrophy]

[Kyle Schuant]

The thing about troll threads like this, is that if the original poster is a worthless cowardly anonymous cocksmock, still their question may raise valid points, issues which might confuse a newbie.

Thus my earlier response, no doubt wasted on this guy, but perhaps useful the next time someone says, "use the damn search function!" and the person actually does. Which seems unlikely, I know, but there you go, I live in hope. From piles of shit little daisies may grow.

[jep6095]

if the original poster is a worthless cowardly anonymous cocksmock

I'd really like to hear this with the Aussie accent.

still their question may raise valid points, issues which might confuse a newbie.

Which is why I gave a shit.

jp

[ReverseHypertrophy]

[mstrofbass]

Has to be msingh.

[ReverseHypertrophy]

Dearest StartingStrength Community,

If your goal is to improve athleticism, and you are in fact obsessed with full squatting, then your squats should look like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jxTc2ITA8

Minimal to no buttwink & very upright torso.

To become slower, and thus jump 22" SVJ with a 600 lb. squat, I refer you to the squat Coach Rippetoe teaches & the use of high amounts of ibuprofen & GOMAD.

Regards,

RH

[blowdpanis]

Dearest StartingStrength Community,

If your goal is to improve athleticism, and you are in fact obsessed with full squatting, then your squats should look like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jxTc2ITA8

Minimal to no buttwink & very upright torso.

To become slower, and thus jump 22" SVJ with a 600 lb. squat, I refer you to the squat Coach Rippetoe teaches & the use of high amounts of ibuprofen & GOMAD.

Regards,

RH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xFm9...eature=related

How about Mendes? Obvious "butt wink," large vertical leap, arguably the strongest olympic weightlifter in the USA. Doh.