Form check Power clean (power ugly) and Deadlift

[RichWill1664]

Claiming to play poker semi professionally without understanding the nature of variance makes me question your entire argument about Craig

At that point I had be training on ss for 10 months. I could not do power cleans but for press, bench, squat and deadlift. I had fail once on bench corrected moved forward, failed to get deadlift a few times due to form, then corrected moved forward and had not failed once on press or squat. Then I failed 4 training sessions in a row with a coach and said why I was failing. How would that seem like variance to you? That is the part I do not understand. If he would have just said "damn you right you can't stretch before lifting heavy" I would still be training with him. But really what is the aversion to accepting that this is the problem?

[Mark Rippetoe]

What gets to me about this whole thing and where I push back on it, is about the stretching. Why is it no one will mention "if" stretching can make you weaker? I'm covered in sweat, I fail 3 times before specifically saying before we start that I can not do the stretching routine before failing a 4th time. Not only would Craig not listen to this neither will anyone else it seems. Its written about in starting strength articles but in this instants nothing.

Stretching is not a part of this program. No one is responding to you because you're a demanding pain in the ass.

[RichWill1664]

Stretching is not a part of this program. No one is responding to you because you're a demanding pain in the ass.

That part was all I needed. Its not part of the program and that is what was disappointing. My apologizes for being a demanding pain in the ass. I definitely have my faults, you could have called me a lot worse and I would have agreed with you.

[Mark Rippetoe]

There is a good reason it is not part of the program -- it was not an accidental omission.

[Craig Bearss]

Richard,

First of all, why you don’t go by your given name, Dick Tuckwood, is beyond me. Seems like an opportunity missed. You could have been a pornstar or a Buffalo Bill impersonator. Hopefully the former.

Also I apologize for the late reply. I just got back from a stag in Nashville, and it’s taken a few days for my neurotransmitters to reach equilibrium. I highly recommend Nashville, but bring a a boatload of money. The scenery is quite lovely too.

When you came to see me for your clean, I took one look at you and knew you couldn’t rack your clean, because you were the tightest motherfucker I’ve ever seen. I hadn’t seen your power clean video you posted, but now it is burned in my retina. I’m forever scarred.

In our first session, we got you jumping with straight arms rather quickly, but you had zero ability to rack the bar. We did some stretches to facilitate this and got close. To get to a decent rack, it would have taken a ton of reps with lighter weights in order to get there. I recommended using these lighter cleans as a warm up for your deadlift sessions, you didn’t do that. As an anecdote, at the recent Starting Strength coaches conference, we did a group coaching session on the clean. After this I pulled 655 for a PR. I think it’s an effective strategy.

Later, we thought we would try the snatch. Once again, being the tin man that you are, there were issues with the catch. You had limited shoulder flexion, which required you to catch the bar with a very vertical torso with your knees way over your toes, also less than ideal. We did some shoulder stretches to help, which they did. Again, I advised using lighter snatches as a warmup for your deads, and once again you did not.

Regarding the strength lifts, you have built up some very impressive numbers! Though there were a few issues. You could not get the empty bar or even 135 into a low bar position. But somewhere around 315 or so you say you could. Now tell me, if you do all your warmups high bar, you think magically you’ll execute a nice low bar squat for your work sets? Seems unlikely. You also were squatting with your feet pointed too forward and not getting your knees out. Doing this allows you to hit depth without your lumbar spine going into flexion. Also gets more muscle involved in the lift.

You also couldn’t set your back for your deadlift. Because once again, tight as fuck. When the hamstrings are very tight they pull the pelvis into posterior tilt and make it very hard to create rigid lumbar extension. So yes, once again we did some stretching for the hamstrings. Namely RDLs where you hold your back flat and flex at the hips as far as your hamstrings will allow, progressively going a bit deeper. Doing this we got your back a little flatter for your deads, but yes, you missed lifts. Because you hadn’t been pulling with a flat back. You also weren’t resetting between lifts or keeping the bar over midfoot. You should do that.

Your press was fantastic, other than your ability to lock out over the ears and thus midfoot at the top. I recommend doing dead hangs to help this. That is a stretch.

In hindsight I would have brought all your lifts down and got you to do them correctly. AKA a complete overhaul. Which would have taken some time to bring them back up. How long? I’m not sure. Especially knowing you wouldn’t take my coaching advice as listed above.

I was as excited as you to hit some big numbers. I thought I’d be able to coach you into proper technique while maintaining your progression, that was a mistake that I’ll own.

At the final session, you did explicitly express a desire to not do any stretching at the start of the session. And you’re right, I didn’t listen. We did a couple drills to help you get your knees out in the squat, and to try to get the bar lower on your back to execute a low bar squat. These took approximately 2 minutes.

In terms of load selection, you had told me the previous week you had done (IIRC) 450x5 and it was damn hard. My thinking, was to work up to a slightly heavier single, then maybe hit 455 for a triple.

During the warmups, your squats looked decent! Better bar placement, foot position, and getting knees out. You had expressed previously that you didn’t want to get tired, so I obliged. We warmed up using very minimal reps, a couple triples and mostly singles. 405 Moved well. 445 moved well. I made the call for 465. I thought it would go for sure, and the planned 455 would feel a little lighter. Alas, you missed the lift because you couldn’t maintain thoracic extension and the bar rolled forward. That is not good. If we miss we want to set the bar on the pins. But you gave up on it pretty quick. Not much of an effort in my opinion.

My guess is that in this case you were squatting with a more horizontal back angle than you previously had been. I guess that’s an error I should have foreseen, since you had been high bar squatting. I recommended backing off and getting it right. But you got changed, left the gym, and fired me. I get it. Missing a lift fucking sucks. I’d be pissed too.

After this I messaged you trying to explain my rationale, but you blocked me, so our communication had terminated. Then you took it to the board to question my expertise. Fair enough. You had a bad experience with an SSC and we are known as the best in the biz. I don’t think I'm the best SSC, but I understand the method, and I’ve logged roughly 15 000 hours of training sessions. Do I colour outside the lines a bit? Yeah. Do I perform some “mobility” work myself, yeah. But I've got myself to a 600 squat and a 655 deadlift, without ever getting hurt (touches wood repeatedly). So I guess I don't find a little that detrimental, when warranted.

I truly enjoyed working with you, and was really quite disappointed when it didn’t work out. Like I said I was stoked to get you to your goals. That’s exciting for me. There are some things I wish I did differently. But coaching is a lifelong learning experience, and I learned something. I implore you to seek out an online SSC, maybe that will be a better fit.

To answer your question of what you need to fix-

-Get the bar low on the back so you can low bar squat-you’ll lift more that way. Point your toes out more and get your knees out. Hips back. It's all in the Blue Book.

-For God’s sake get your back set on your deadlifts. Reset every rep and make sure the bar is over midfoot. Tailbone up, belly down, chest up HARD. You should be uncomfortably tight before you push the floor with your feet.

-Work on your cleans and/or snatches. Do them before your deadlifts, even if they’re embarrassingly light to start. They are a good warm up. Jump with straight arms with the bar brushing against your thigh. Drive your elbows up and catch the bar on your shoulders. It’ll take a while to get a good rack and it might piss off your elbows. (stretching might help).

I do wish you the best of luck in your journey. You’re a fun dude and you’ve done some tremendous work so far. You are a great student of the method. I wish I had got to work with you from the start, I think it could have been a very rewarding partnership.

Yours in strength,
Craig

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

It's sad to think that maybe, just maybe, all it would have taken to continue working together was to just move stretching at the end of a session, rather than the beginning.

IPB

PS
Imho, doxing people is not cool and in this instance was unnecessary, but it might just be me.

[Martin Shenfield]

It's sad to think that maybe, just maybe, all it would have taken to continue working together was to just move stretching at the end of a session, rather than the beginning.

IPB

PS
Imho, doxing people is not cool and in this instance was unnecessary, but it might just be me.

I think it was a little harsh, but I suppose that's what you get when you criticise someone who knows who you are anonymously on the internet, and who probably had to deal with being contacted by Rip (not that that isn't a lovely phone call normally). Play with fire, get burned.

Craig's story does actually match up with OP's Facebook group posts. So I feel like we got not enough of both sides early enough to have things resolved peacefully.

I also don't understand how stretching after would work? The man can't get into position and was basically doing the low bar stretch, push knees out and some rack stretches for the PC, all of which are in videos on Starting Strength. I guess he could do all his squats high bar and stretch after but we weren't there to know how necessary that was.

The weird irony in this is I'm pretty sure OP said on the Facebook group that he was doing the horn stretch before his squat for months and it was really helping him then.

I should clear up that I'm not stalking anyone. I'm an autist. When I'm unclear on something I research it.

[heinz83]

Sometimes two people just aren't compatible. Just imagine if you had to train your wife.

[Steven Kalin]

It's sad to think that maybe, just maybe, all it would have taken to continue working together was to just move stretching at the end of a session, rather than the beginning.

IPB

PS
Imho, doxing people is not cool and in this instance was unnecessary, but it might just be me.

I didn’t want to speak for Craig, but the first thing that occurred to me on watching the lifts was how stiff the guy looked. I’m sure Rip will correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe I remember him saying there’s no need for flexibility above what’s required to do the lifts. Clearly this fella needed some mobility work.

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

I also don't understand how stretching after would work?

If the goal is to become more flexible to be able to assume the correct lifting position, then I think stretching regularly after working out will be a way to reach that goal. As his flexibility increases, he will eventually only need a couple of movements incorporated into the warm-up to be ready, instead of several minutes.

IPB