Fixing a "good-morning'd" squat

[Subsistence]

I'm pretty sure that front squats cannot fix a squat. How can a movement that relies on a vertical back angle at 70% of the load fix a problem caused by a failure to control a much heavier weight at a back angle of ~45 degrees?

And what controls the back angle anyway? Hamstrings control the back angle. The front squat in fact uses hamstrings to control the back angle, and that's why they are in such a contracted position at the bottom. But front squat uses a vertical back angle that places little moment force on the back, so that the hamstrings have much less moment force on the back to deal with. At the back angle used in the squat, hamstrings are loaded much differently than in the front squat, so much so that the front squat does nothing to train this aspect of the squat.

The argument I heard is that good-morninging a squat is a result of quad weakness. Due to the quad's inability to move the load, the body compensates by allowing them to extend the knee without moving the bar shifting the load onto the posterior chain. This results in the good-morning-esque position.

Front squats force you to stay upright and as a consequence force the quads to do the work they try to avoid in the regular back squat.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I disagree with that analysis. It is dealt with on pp 130-31 BBT3.

[Brian Harlin]

It's not that simple. It happens as the weights get heavy, and the hips are rising while the back can't keep it's correct angle versus the floor. The bar weight goes forward on your toes, and you start goodmorning the weight to put it over the middle of the foot as you rise from the bottom, so probably a different cue is needed.
I've had a similar problem and for me the Master Cue (bar over the middle of the foot) seems to be working, but I was wondering if chest up may be needed for this?

I never said it was simple.
But It doesn't just 'happen'. That would indicate that you are cruising along from workout to workout, doing just fine, when all of a sudden you add the last 5 pounds and it's suddenly too much.

That is not what happens. What happens is: you start with a light weight and your form is ok. You add a little per workout and as you do your form is deteriorating from workout to workout as the weight slowly gets heavier. Ultimately you end up with a shitty goods morning/ squat hybrid. This is a result of not holding your form to a higher standard, you ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN.

Ask yourself: Is this something that you can control? If you dropped the weight; say 10 percent or so, could you squat without losing your back angle? If you can't control your back angle at any weight, then nothing anyone tells you on the Internet can fix it BECAUSE IT'S BEYOND YOUR CONTROL. However, if you can control it at a lighter weight, then it's within your control. YOU MUST EXERCISE THIS CONTROL. Cues aren't magic, ultimately YOU are doing the work. Ask yourself, what is the cue doing? What is its purpose?

Often it is said that things like this can be fixed with someone yelling at you. Assuming that you are aware that it's happening, what does a person yelling at you change that fixes the problem?
(hint: this is an exercise in introspection)

[Shaun]

The argument I heard is that good-morninging a squat is a result of quad weakness. Due to the quad's inability to move the load, the body compensates by allowing them to extend the knee without moving the bar shifting the load onto the posterior chain. This results in the good-morning-esque position.

Front squats force you to stay upright and as a consequence force the quads to do the work they try to avoid in the regular back squat.

This is the popular bro-science explanation, yes, but it's wrong.

In a GM-squat, the quads quite clearly manage to extend the knee, otherwise you'd have never gotten out of the hole. You're still bent over because your posterior chain hasn't managed to extend the hips. If your posterior chain was good at extending the hips, they'd have extended properly and you wouldn't be GMing the weight up.

Also consider that in GM squats the back almost always rounds, destroying hamstring tension.

[Subsistence]

This is the popular bro-science explanation, yes, but it's wrong.

In a GM-squat, the quads quite clearly manage to extend the knee, otherwise you'd have never gotten out of the hole. You're still bent over because your posterior chain hasn't managed to extend the hips. If your posterior chain was good at extending the hips, they'd have extended properly and you wouldn't be GMing the weight up.

Also consider that in GM squats the back almost always rounds, destroying hamstring tension.

Well, the issue is that the quads can't lift the load. They can extend the knee all they want if the bar doesn't have to move with it. And since the posterior chain is so good at extended the hips the hips still ultimate get extended (hence not failing the squat).

It seems to me that the hamstrings and overall posterior chain have to work harder if you GM the squat. So it seems odd to me that the GMing of the squat could be due to hamstring weakness. Since the quads are what are avoiding work in this scenario, why is quad weakness not the primary culprit? What would you expect a squat to look like where the posterior chain did have to compensate for the quads, if not like this?

[Dave 321]

OP, concentrate on keeping your hamstrings tight throughout the whole squat. Don't get to the bottom and think "oh fuck there's a heavy bar on my back" and do whatever you can to get back up - concentrate really damn hard on squatting properly. You'll probably find that you feel it heavily in your hamstrings.

[Rob Israel]

CHEST UP!

I ran into this problem last year. The way I fixed it was to reset significantly. I decided to do 3 sets of 8, (instead of 5x5) which is not necessary, but it was fun to change it up and I got the volume but at a lower tonnage so I could focus on form. I did that for about 4 weeks and started adding a heavier fourth set. Finally, I went back to 5x5 and was A-OK again.

The quad thing is BS. If anything, it's caused by back weakness, but ultimately even that is probably irrelevant. You have to practice the form properly (at lower tonnage) to relearn it and then apply that muscle memory to more taxing sets as you go.

Personally, I thought the 6 week investment in form at the expense of strength gains was worth it.

[Mr.City]

CHEST UP!

I ran into this problem last year. The way I fixed it was to reset significantly. I decided to do 3 sets of 8, (instead of 5x5) which is not necessary, but it was fun to change it up and I got the volume but at a lower tonnage so I could focus on form. I did that for about 4 weeks and started adding a heavier fourth set. Finally, I went back to 5x5 and was A-OK again.

The quad thing is BS. If anything, it's caused by back weakness, but ultimately even that is probably irrelevant. You have to practice the form properly (at lower tonnage) to relearn it and then apply that muscle memory to more taxing sets as you go.

Personally, I thought the 6 week investment in form at the expense of strength gains was worth it.

This sounds like you're doing something similar to TM or a heavy/med/light-ish schedule. Were not making any progress on your intensity/heavy days during that time?

[Rob Israel]

This sounds like you're doing something similar to TM or a heavy/med/light-ish schedule. Were not making any progress on your intensity/heavy days during that time?

It was a big reset so I reset the Intensity day too. So I went over the same ground for a second time basically. Anyway, I just meant that maybe sometimes it's better to put strength gains aside in order to address a big fault like this.

[mlentzner]

It was a big reset so I reset the Intensity day too. So I went over the same ground for a second time basically. Anyway, I just meant that maybe sometimes it's better to put strength gains aside in order to address a big fault like this.

Not sometimes. Always.

Anyone who trains with me doesn't get to add weight, and is likely reset, if I see anything sketchy with their lifts. And as much as they gripe about it, I wouldn't be doing my job if I let it continue.