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Thread: a few questions for Ripp

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    And I'm interested in your opinion that there is no difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy. What evidence do you have that this is true?
    Disclaimer: I don't claim to be the most up on these things, but the following is my understanding...

    On the sarcoplasmic vs. myofibrillar hypertrophy thing, I don't think that Mike (blowdpanis) meant that there was no difference, but rather that you couldn't train one without the other. One source of this idea may be from Dan Moore (whom Kyle and Mike are familiar with), and possibly this paper of Dan's. It's a 12 page Word doc...I think you can get it without being a member. If not I could email it. Anyway, after reviewing various papers and talking about lots of muscle biology stuff that I don't claim to understand, Dan says this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Moore
    Whole body protein synthesis is an average of the synthesis rat What can be seen when reviewing these and many other papers on the subject is the response to resistance training of fractional elevation remains in line with the results of feeding, both are elevated but the slower turnover proteins (myofibrillar) generally show a larger magnitude in increase. Since these studies show that this holds true with resistance training, dynamic exercise and HFES, all utilizing differing intensities and work output, it seems unlikely that the rep range is the sole cause of any increase in sarcoplasmic fraction up-regulation.
    (my emphasis)

    If I understand correctly, the people who do know muscle biology think that the differential impact of rep ranges is more in what fiber types get hypertrophied, plus (I think) conversion of one fiber type to another. All of which still leaves me a bit puzzled, as I still think that no matter now much LBM dieted down PLers show, I doubt that many will be 275-300lbs at sub 10% body fat, as I think Coleman, Cutler and the like are. Can all the difference be explained by different fibers types being hypertrophied and neural training, yet still leave a bber with significantly greater muscle mass at best no stronger than the PLer, OLer, or Strongman?

    Anyway, my understanding as mentioned above is that at least some knowledgeable folks would contend that rep range affects the types of fibers being hypertrophied, not how much of the hypertrophy is sarcoplasmic.

  2. #12
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    Howdy sir,

    Concerning a definition of volume, the only real definition that makes sense to me is the total number of repetitions. If you tie the definition of volume to intensity (% 1RM) or any other variable, how could you ever establish the effect of "volume" against other variables (e.g. intensity and frequency)?

    My point in the illustration above was speculation that it wasn't the high reps and the metabolic stuff happening as a result of the high reps responsible for "high rep sets" being more conducive to growth. There's empirical evidence (including the link I sent, and the unpublished study Lyle references) that this is not the case. What appears to matter most, I suppose, is total tonnage - the combination of intensity and volume. How heavy you're lifting, and how many total times you lift it, all else constant. Thus, if you match volume (total reps) in any comparison, a higher intensity will "win" almost irregardless of context (training age of the subjects in question etc), imho.

    Regarding sarcoplasmic vs. myofibrillar hypertrophy, I never said that there was no difference between the two per se, but rather that you couldn't separate the two in a meaningful way, and what I had in mind with that comment was the ability to isolate one form of hypertrophy from the other in terms of changes one could make to their training.

    Basically, it is my belief that that muscle fibers keep a regulated ratio of protein to sarcoplasmic content, so separating one from the other into discrete categories doesn't really work. Both happen, certainly, so both forms "exist," but I am aware of no evidence to suggest one could ever really happen to the exclusion of the other. In fact, the only place I've seen this suggested (that the two can be meaningfully separated) is Russian literature (e.g. Supertraining), and then some American authors seemed to adopt the idea from them. But I don't believe there was ever a good empirical basis for this belief.

    Does fatigue affect the nature of the stimulus, i.e. does specificity still hold? Of course, but first and foremost, changing the nature of the metabolic stimulus will change the fatigue characteristics of that muscle. I.e. you will see adaptations sponsoring an increased efficiency in whatever energy pathway you happen to be using.

    However, muscle hypertrophy is, imho, a mechanical phenomenon, a very specific response to strain that results in an increase in protein content of the contractile machinery of muscle tissue. I see the metabolic stuff as secondary to this. Not unrelated, but that the primary stimulus is NOT metabolic in nature, but mechanical. There's actually a really, really good discussion of this in Dan Moore's Max-Stim e-book, which I'll direct you to, if you're interested:

    http://www.hypertrophy-research.com/...timulation.pdf

    Now, how you train, i.e. higher reps, can absolutely affect the "look" of the muscle, but I would argue that most of this is transient - glycogen/fluid retention. I would go so far to say that, in (lifetime) natural trainees, you would be hard pressed to tell a "lean powerlifter" apart from a bodybuilder. I think a lot of what we identify as the "look" of bodybuilders has a lot more to do with their drugs of choice than their training methods.

    Of course, this is all just my opinion, so it can be taken with an enormous grain of salt. But since you asked, I figured I'd explain my reasoning.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by blowdpanis View Post
    Howdy sir,


    Regarding sarcoplasmic vs. myofibrillar hypertrophy, I never said that there was no difference between the two per se, but rather that you couldn't separate the two in a meaningful way, and what I had in mind with that comment was the ability to isolate one form of hypertrophy from the other in terms of changes one could make to their training.

    Basically, it is my belief that that muscle fibers keep a regulated ratio of protein to sarcoplasmic content, so separating one from the other into discrete categories doesn't really work. Both happen, certainly, so both forms "exist," but I am aware of no evidence to suggest one could ever really happen to the exclusion of the other. In fact, the only place I've seen this suggested (that the two can be meaningfully separated) is Russian literature (e.g. Supertraining), and then some American authors seemed to adopt the idea from them. But I don't believe there was ever a good empirical basis for this belief.
    If you'll look carefully at the stuff I've written about this, I have never attempted to say that one form of hypertrophy exists in the complete absence of the other, but rather there is a continuum of effect from the type dominated by myofibrillar hypertrophy and high-force production to hypertrophy dominated by non-myofibrillar processes which are caused by stresses involving lower force production requirements that are sustained over a longer time frame, the metabolic consequences of which are different from those of a set that only takes a few seconds. Now, if there is no difference between the two types of adaptation, that must mean that there is no difference in the stresses, which there most certainly are. Or that the two different types of stress get responded to in the same way, which they won't. I really don't see how the two ends of a continuum can be the same, which is what I believe you are saying here.

    But I have been tricked into a discussion outside my area of expertise; I am not a physiologist, and I do not pretend to specific knowledge in the area of muscle physiology. It is actually outside my zone of interest, but I'll pass this thread along to Dr. Kilgore and we'll see if he wants to comment.

    Rip

  4. #14
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    Hell Mark, don't let that stop you. None of us are physiologists either, we just play them on the Internet.

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