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Thread: Intermittent Fasting Question

  1. #11
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    What is the point of IF outside of increased dietary compliance?

    Additionally, is there any evidence showing that supplementing w/ whey in the context of IF produces better outcomes than not (hint: there is no evidence to suggest that supplementing whey long term does anything- so this is really a tongue-in-cheek type of question).

    I guess what I'm saying is that adding a scoop of whey isn't going to do anything, transient fluctuations in cortisol don't matter, cortisol isn't bad- for instance if it doesn't spike post workout your workout wasn't terribly useful unless it was active recovery, and IF for purposes other than boosting compliance are not evidence based.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    and IF for purposes other than boosting compliance are not evidence based.
    I humbly disagree.
    Daily intermittent fasting has many health benefits, including the following:
    1. Enables the burning of fat. Studies demonstrate that intermittent fasting decreases body fat, LDL cholesterol, and triacylglycerol concentrations. A great advantage of intermittent fasting is that it enables the body to maximize its fat-burning abilities fifteen hours per day. When done correctly, according to Maimonides’s prescriptions, your daily fast should begin three to four hours before bedtime and end three to six hours after awakening. This schedule takes advantage of the body’s natural hormonal daily cycle of fat-burning hormones kicking in at night, when people normally sleep and lack energy originating from food in the intestinal tract. Accustoming yourself to daily fasts and building them up to fifteen to sixteen hours per day trains you to stretch out the daily fat-burning window. When glycogen (sugar) stores are low, the body speeds up fat burning in attempt to prevent using up all the sugar reserves. The longer the fast, the lower the glycogen stores, and the faster the body burns fat. Yet maintaining the eight-hour window for daily food consumption avoids the harm of going too long without food, as prolonged fasting weakens the body, slows metabolism, and consumes muscle for sustenance.
    2. Lowers blood pressure. Studies demonstrate that intermittent fasting lowers blood pressure.
    3. Avoids bad digestion. Sleep inhibits digestion, as digestion is dependent on blood flow and body movement, which are greatly reduced during sleep. Food that is eaten too late does not get digested properly and can cause toxic reactions and gases. And digestive acids linger for hours in the same spot. Sleeping on an empty stomach avoids these harmful effects. Therefore, beginning one’s daily intermittent fast a few hours before bedtime has the advantage of protecting the digestive system.
    4. Enables deep sleep and secretion of HGH. Digestion inhibits sleep. When the digestive tract and the liver are required to work to process food, they demand higher blood concentration, pressure, and flow, thereby disrupting the rest of the cardiovascular system. Failing to have deep sleep inhibits the secretion of HGH—human growth hormone. In contrast, if you sleep on an empty stomach, the digestive tract, liver, and cardiovascular systems can rest, and the body can benefit from deeper sleep and maximal secretion of HGH, which contributes to revitalizing our bodies at night. HGH is lypolytic (stimulates the burning of visceral fats for energy) and also triggers the release of insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1), which is a primary mediator of muscle repair and growth. Artificial HGH treatment has negligible benefits aside from fat loss; however, the use of a synthetic form of growth-hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH), which stimulates the body’s natural release of HGH, yields significant benefits. It restores normal HGH pulsation and amplitude, increasing IGF-1 to upper physiologic ranges; selectively reduces abdominal visceral adipose tissue, cIMT, CRP, and triglycerides; and improves cognitive function in older persons. (Increased values of cIMT carotid intima-media thickness [the thickness of the inner two layers of the carotid artery—the intima and media], and high-sensitivity C-reactive protein CRP [a marker of inflammation that predicts incident myocardial infarction, stroke, peripheral arterial disease, and sudden cardiac death among healthy individuals with no history of cardiovascular disease, and recurrent events and death in patients with acute or stable coronary syndromes]—are predictors of acute coronary events).
    5. Avoids inhibition of HGH by avoiding insulin secretion at night. When you eat late-night meals that include carbohydrates, it causes your body to secrete insulin. Insulin inhibits the secretion of HGH and inhibits the beneficial effects of whatever HGH is secreted. By going to sleep on an empty stomach, we enable our bodies to secrete and fully utilize the incredible revitalizing benefits of HGH.
    6. Avoids the ills of hyperinsulinemia. In a study by the Salk Institute for Biological Studies, two groups of mice were compared; one group was allowed to eat twenty-four hours a day, and the other group ate the same type of food, with the same caloric intake, but the group’s eating was restricted to an eight-hour period with sixteen hours per day of involuntary fasting. The intermittent-fasting mice showed improved insulin sensitivity (protection from hyperinsulinemia) and were protected from obesity.
    The above study on mice doesn’t prove that intermittent fasting would help hyperinsulinemia in humans; however, a small study on eight healthy men who fasted for twenty-hour intervals every other day for two weeks, while eating enough to maintain their body weight, demonstrates that the intermittent fasting improved insulin sensitivity in humans.
    A similar study of eight men and eight women fasting on alternate days for three weeks also demonstrates improved insulin sensitivity and weight loss; however, the researchers concluded that the participants’ perpetual hunger on the fasting days made it too difficult to adapt to as a lifestyle. Unlike the difficult twenty-four-hour fasts of this study, gradually adjusting to the Maimonides method of daily, sixteen-hour overnight fasts is not too difficult to adapt to as a lifestyle. Surprisingly, the reduced appetite that becomes habituated with daily intermittent fasting is often more comfortable than dealing with uncontrollable constant urges.
    Another six-month study of 107 obese women compares the effects of intermittent energy restriction to continuous energy restriction and concludes that “intermittent energy restriction is more effective in reducing hyperinsulinemia.”
    Intermittent fasting of more than twelve hours is guaranteed to deplete glycogen reserves in the liver (also in the muscle to a lesser extent) such that those tissues will be prepared to respond quickly to insulin, absorbing sugar from the blood. As catabolic hormones are at their daily peak shortly after awakening, those hormones oppose insulin and cause insulin resistance. Waiting for breakfast until those hormones subside will enable the body to respond well to insulin when breaking the fast with one’s first meal of the day. By avoiding the pitfalls of hyperinsulinemia, you avoid the onset of hunger pangs, overeating, and the conversion of carbohydrates to excess body fat.
    7. Enables control of total daily caloric intake. For people suffering from obesity, having more hours in the day to eat means more hours to struggle with temptations and maintain control. Habituating oneself to limit the window of eating makes it easier to control daily caloric intake.
    8. Enables detoxification. While digesting food, the body accumulates toxins. When the digestive tract rests, the body removes them. However, the detoxifying process requires a lot of time, because on the cellular level, the anabolic processes of utilizing the digested nutrients goes on for hours after the initial digestion of the food. The body can manage some detoxifying processes virtually all the time, but the effectiveness increases as the length of the fast increases. The main benefits of detoxification occur in the last three to four hours of the daily overnight fast of fourteen to sixteen hours.
    9. Intensifies autophagy. Intermittent fasting also intensifies the body’s natural process of autophagy , —the controlled destruction of damaged organelles within a cell, which has been shown to have anti-aging effects —and is required to maintain muscle mass.
    10. Prolongs life. With all these health benefits, intermittent fasting should lead to a healthier and longer life. Studies on mice clearly demonstrate that intermittent fasting lengthens life.

  3. #13
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    1. Enables the burning of fat. Studies demonstrate that intermittent fasting decreases body fat, LDL cholesterol, and triacylglycerol concentrations.
    Not compared to an equivalently calorie restricted diet w a regular feeding schedule. This is ABSOLUTELY not true- especially in any large cohort studies.

    A great advantage of intermittent fasting is that it enables the body to maximize its fat-burning abilities fifteen hours per day.
    Not really. The process of fat burning actually slows down with extended fasts.

    When done correctly, according to Maimonides’s prescriptions, your daily fast should begin three to four hours before bedtime and end three to six hours after awakening. This schedule takes advantage of the body’s natural hormonal daily cycle of fat-burning hormones kicking in at night, when people normally sleep and lack energy originating from food in the intestinal tract
    .

    What are these fat-burning hormones, Yonason? These are pretty bold claims that are NOT evidence based so I humbly ask you to provide data in humans that show this is a superior method.

    Accustoming yourself to daily fasts and building them up to fifteen to sixteen hours per day trains you to stretch out the daily fat-burning window. When glycogen (sugar) stores are low, the body speeds up fat burning in attempt to prevent using up all the sugar reserves.
    This is a gross over generalization. Also- the glycerol liberated from the stored adipose is used for gluconeogenesis. Many peripheral tissues also become relatively insulin resistant so they don't use glucose.

    The longer the fast, the lower the glycogen stores, and the faster the body burns fat. Yet maintaining the eight-hour window for daily food consumption avoids the harm of going too long without food, as prolonged fasting weakens the body, slows metabolism, and consumes muscle for sustenance.
    This, again, is a gross over generalization. Protein catabolism, breakdown, and turnover is going to happen either way, IF or not. Glycogen stores will not continue to get lower and lower either- the body does not let this happen so that's just plain wrong.

    2. Lowers blood pressure. Studies demonstrate that intermittent fasting lowers blood pressure.
    Not more than the same caloric deficit in a regular feeding schedule.

    3. Avoids bad digestion. Sleep inhibits digestion, as digestion is dependent on blood flow and body movement, which are greatly reduced during sleep. Food that is eaten too late does not get digested properly and can cause toxic reactions and gases. And digestive acids linger for hours in the same spot. Sleeping on an empty stomach avoids these harmful effects. Therefore, beginning one’s daily intermittent fast a few hours before bedtime has the advantage of protecting the digestive system.
    Please qualify what you mean by "not digested properly" and "toxic reactions and gases". Also, you realize that there's zero percent chance you actually go to sleep on an empty stomach following the protocol you outline above,right? Gastric emptying time, as it turns out, is complicated.

    4. Enables deep sleep and secretion of HGH
    .

    HGH levels do not matter outside of a clinical deficiency. Any point related to HGH is 100% quackery.

    Digestion inhibits sleep.
    What exactly do you mean?

    When the digestive tract and the liver are required to work to process food, they demand higher blood concentration, pressure, and flow, thereby disrupting the rest of the cardiovascular system.
    I'm not sure you understand how blood flow, blood pressure, and blood distribution works given the above statement.
    Failing to have ....
    Literally everything you type here is misunderstood and not correct. I am surprised you typed it, honestly. Deep sleep is important, yes. HGH is not.

    5. Avoids inhibition of HGH by avoiding insulin secretion at night. When you eat late-night meals that include carbohydrates, it causes your body to secrete insulin. Insulin inhibits the secretion of HGH and inhibits the beneficial effects of whatever HGH is secreted. By going to sleep on an empty stomach, we enable our bodies to secrete and fully utilize the incredible revitalizing benefits of HGH.
    LOL. HGH is a MARKER of fuel stores. Insulin is released from a protein only meal to a great extent or protein and fat mixed meal. Oh noes! What happens now?

    [QUOTE]

    6. Avoids the ills of hyperinsulinemia. In a study by the Salk Institute for Biological Studies, two groups of mice were compared; one group was allowed to eat twenty-four hours a day, and the other group ate the same type of food, with the same caloric intake, but the group’s eating was restricted to an eight-hour period with sixteen hours per day of involuntary fasting.

    The above study on mice doesn’t prove that intermittent fasting would help hyperinsulinemia in humans....
    In the short term. Long term, insulin sensitivity actually tends to trend downward in calorie restricted state in previously normal weight (or non obese) individuals. Further, this insulin sensitivity improvement is not different if daily intake is the same. Then again, the data is NOT coming from metabolic ward studies and the weight changes are not concordant with equal dietary intakes either.

    Unlike the difficult twenty-four-hour fasts of this study, gradually adjusting to the Maimonides method of daily, sixteen-hour overnight fasts is not too difficult to adapt to as a lifestyle. Surprisingly, the reduced appetite that becomes habituated with daily intermittent fasting is often more comfortable than dealing with uncontrollable constant urges.
    Ah, the proprietary overnight fasts. I see. Revolutionary.

    Another six-month study of 107 obese women compares the effects of intermittent energy restriction to continuous energy restriction and concludes that “intermittent energy restriction is more effective in reducing hyperinsulinemia.”
    If you look across all cohorts in that data, this statement is not true. In the most successful IF cohort- i.e. those who lost more weight on average than the other IF'ers or the regular dieters, they had the biggest improvement in insulin levels. That said, 6 month data is not particularly compelling. We know weight loss improves insulin sensitivity, but we also know >95% of diets do not work long term- even Maimonides™.

    The same authors go on to say:

    To date, the longest weight-loss trial of IER, lasting six months, demonstrated comparable weight loss amongst overweight / obese women assigned to IER (two ~75% ER days per week) and CER (25% ER/day) groups at all tested time points. Whilst this suggests that IER is no easier to follow in the long-term, the limited variety of foods permitted on restricted days in this particular study (milk, fruits and vegetables) may have limited the acceptability and long-term sustainability of this protocol.
    Intermittent fasting of more than twelve hours is guaranteed to deplete glycogen reserves in the liver (also in the muscle to a lesser extent) such that those tissues will be prepared to respond quickly to insulin, absorbing sugar from the blood.
    As muscle stores do not contribute to maintaining resting blood sugar- their glycogen levels do not change very much unless you exercise vigorously without feeding, which is a good way to underperform. With feeding, glycogen replenishment will occur even if someone is low carb- it'll just take a bit longer (a day vs hours).

    ]
    7. Enables control of total daily caloric intake. For people suffering from obesity, having more hours in the day to eat means more hours to struggle with temptations and maintain control. Habituating oneself to limit the window of eating makes it easier to control daily caloric intake.
    This is the only point in your whole post that I agree with and is reasonable.

    8. Enables detoxification....
    LOL.

    9. Intensifies autophagy. Intermittent fasting also intensifies the body’s natural process of autophagy
    This only occurs in a calorie restricted state (regardless of IF) and any benefits of autophagy are also seen with regular feeding protocols that are also calorie restricted. That said, there are other MUCH MORE USEFUL interventions that one could employ to increase health and signal appropriate levels of autophagy....like training, for instance

    10. Prolongs life.
    Calorie restriction may prolong life. IF in and of itself probably does not.

  4. #14
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    From Me: You cannot just post links to studies that you have not read in full (as evidenced by what you're claiming they say) without explanation. I won't allow that here.



    A 15 hour daily intermittent fast is not an extended fast. I'm surprised of your Jordan. The idea that fat burning speeds up with lower glycogen reserves is not controversial, but rather universally accepted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    What are these fat-burning hormones, Yonason?

    Cortisol. Cortisol levels are 8 times higher in the morning than their daily low point after midnight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    These are pretty bold claims that are NOT evidence based so I humbly ask you to provide data in humans that show this is a superior method.
    Explained here: Katarina T. Borer, “Advanced Exercise Endocrinology,” Human Kinetics (2013): 106.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    Glycogen stores will not continue to get lower and lower either- the body does not let this happen so that's just plain wrong.
    If energy is not coming from the diet (because one is fasting), it's either coming from glycogen stores or fat stores (primarily; granted there protein degradation is also a source of energy). If not, where are you suggesting it's coming from?



    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    Not more than the same caloric deficit in a regular feeding schedule.
    Varady et al., “Short-Term Modified Alternate-Day Fasting: A Novel Dietary Strategy for Weight Loss and Cardioprotection in Obese Adults,” American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2009), Short-term modified alternate-day fasting: a novel dietary strategy for weight loss and cardioprotection in obese adults.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    Please qualify what you mean by "not digested properly" and "toxic reactions and gases". Also, you realize that there's zero percent chance you actually go to sleep on an empty stomach following the protocol you outline above,right? Gastric emptying time, as it turns out, is complicated.
    Yes complicated. I explain it in depth on page 48 in Maimonides & Metabolism. See footnotes 71, 72, and 73 there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    HGH levels do not matter outside of a clinical deficiency. Any point related to HGH is 100% quackery.
    Uhhmm... 99.3% quackery. Artificial HGH treatment has negligible benefits, but when natural production of HGH is increased significant benefits have been demonstrated... Fred R. Sattler, “Growth Hormone in the Aging Male,” Clinical Endocrinological Metabolism (August 2013), Growth hormone in the aging male.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    Deep sleep is important, yes. HGH is not.
    Well at least we agree that deep sleep is important. Would you at least concede that some people may benefit from deeper sleep by avoiding eating heavy late at night?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    Further, this insulin sensitivity improvement is not different if daily intake is the same.
    This study and others dispute your claim: Michelle N. Harvie et al., “The Effects of Intermittent or Continuous Energy Restriction on Weight Loss and Metabolic Disease Risk Markers: A Randomised Trial in Young Overweight Women,” International Journal of Obesity (May 2011), The effects of intermittent or continuous energy restriction on weight loss and metabolic disease risk markers: a randomised trial in young overweight women.
    Last edited by Jordan Feigenbaum; 05-03-2016 at 05:36 AM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yonason Herschlag View Post
    F
    A 15 hour daily intermittent fast is not an extended fast. I'm surprised of your Jordan. The idea that fat burning speeds up with lower glycogen reserves is not controversial, but rather universally accepted.
    One, your time scale is abritrary.
    Two, there are multiple variables that need to be in place for the above to be true.
    Three, in general in a well nourished, non lean individual when they fast they will liberate more and more fat as they fast more and more- though glycogen "reserves" tend to not get very low at all since the body has mechanisms to replace this glycogen. This also limits the rate of fat oxidation.


    Cortisol. Cortisol levels are 8 times higher in the morning than their daily low point after midnight.
    This is an arousal hormone, principally. It's not a "fat burning" hormone.


    If energy is not coming from the diet (because one is fasting), it's either coming from glycogen stores or fat stores (primarily; granted there protein degradation is also a source of energy). If not, where are you suggesting it's coming from?
    Glycogen stores are constantly getting replaced, even when fasting. Once they reach a critical low, the rate of gluconeogenesis will increase markedly and peripheral insulin sensitivity will decrease. These are homeostatic mechanisms.


    Varady et al., “Short-Term Modified Alternate-Day Fasting: A Novel Dietary Strategy for Weight Loss and Cardioprotection in Obese Adults,” American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2009), Short-term modified alternate-day fasting: a novel dietary strategy for weight loss and cardioprotection in obese adults.
    This study in no way shows what you say it does. It is also only 10 weeks w/ 16 subjects. The overwhelming evidence disagrees with you.


    Yes complicated. I explain it in depth on page 48 in Maimonides & Metabolism. See footnotes 71, 72, and 73 there.
    Just because you right about it there doesn't mean it is correct. Please explain how food is not digested properly here- because you do not do so in the book with anything based in evidence.

    Uhhmm... 99.3% quackery. Artificial HGH treatment has negligible benefits, but when natural production of HGH is increased significant benefits have been demonstrated... Fred R. Sattler, “Growth Hormone in the Aging Male,” Clinical Endocrinological Metabolism (August 2013), Growth hormone in the aging male.
    Dammit, Yonason. This is why I'm aggressively asking you to STFU here. GHRH agonists are just being studied on a larger scale and, similar to studies on GH, it's unclear what clinical benefit there are- if any- and what the side effects are. Moreover, this is not something you can do with your diet (esp. not as you suggest) AND would require taking a controlled substance that has not been proven. Even this review article shows most (if not all) of the claims you're making are not clearly and unequivocally supported by data.

    Well at least we agree that deep sleep is important. Would you at least concede that some people may benefit from deeper sleep by avoiding eating heavy late at night?
    I concede that some people eating right before bed will affect their sleep efficiency, but not their overall quality of sleep.

    This study and others dispute your claim: Michelle N. Harvie et al., “The Effects of Intermittent or Continuous Energy Restriction on Weight Loss and Metabolic Disease Risk Markers: A Randomised Trial in Young Overweight Women,” International Journal of Obesity (May 2011), The effects of intermittent or continuous energy restriction on weight loss and metabolic disease risk markers: a randomised trial in young overweight women.
    Please explain the clinical significance of
    difference between groups for fasting insulin −1.2 [−1.4 to −1.0] μU/ml, and insulin resistance −1.2 [−1.5 to −1.0] μU/mmol/L (both P=0.04).
    And, since I'm quite sure you actually read the methodology- please describe how these very small differences are unlikely to be influenced by variables in study design.
    Last edited by Jordan Feigenbaum; 05-03-2016 at 05:38 AM.

  6. #16
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    starting strength coach development program
    (this thread has been awesome to read, whilst eating my bacon and eggs for breakfast, thinking about the next three meals of the day, wondering what I'll have to eat right before bed... and reminds me that eating is my favorite!)

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