Adding weight during novice LP

[Rherington]

First to try to keep this on track we are making some assumptions!
Assumption 1: we have a full set of micro plates and we can add as little as 3/4 of a pound at a time
Assumption 2: EVERYTHING stays EXACTLY the same. Sleep, food, work, life, sex, hell even the temperature while working out.

Okay here is the scenario:
Every thing going along fine and on the last set of squats he misses the last rep. S the obvious thing is to repeat it next time rather than raising the weight 10#. He has been making 10# jumps up until now. So the next workout he completes the full las set at the previous weight.

Now conventional wisdom, and the book I believe says to drop to 5# jumps rather than 10#. And from 5 to 2,5. Then go to micro loading.

Is the 10-5-2.5- just due to plate size? Is there another reason you should drop 50% on your jumps?

Remember the person has micro plates and he barely missed on the last rep. Rather drop the full 5# why not just drop 2.5 to 7.5?

[Gene61]

Hi Randy, You know I am not a coach or even a very experienced lifter, but I have been thinking about this very problem/issue. I hope some of the experienced coaches weigh in on this. However, for my own edification if nothing else, let me lay out the framework in which I have been thinking about this issue.

There is a relationship between 4 variables which determines how much a given workout increases your strength: Genetic Potential (GP), Current Strength Level (5x3RM) (CSL), The Minimum Adaptation Stress (MAS) level which will cause a adaptation, and the actual Workout Stress (WS) of the workout in question.

If the weight you are using (the Workout Stress) is bigger than your Current Strength Level, you will fail the last reps of the last set. If the Workout Stress is less than the Minimum Adaptation Stress then you will not gain in strength. So your WS needs to be between your CSL and your MAS.

• The closer the WS is to CSL the more adaptation takes place during recovery.
• For novices the MAS is very low, so almost any workout causes adaptation
• Initially when the Current Strength Level is far below the Genetic Potential a workout close to your CSL will generate a very big increase in DSL by the time of the next workout.
• As your CSL starts to get closer to your GP a workout close to your CSL won't increase the CSL as much for your next workout.
• Genetic Potential is a function of age and as you get older it declines. Your recovery ability also declines. Linear Progression for older people will be at a slower rate.

So to set up your questions in this framework: You have a high GP (Genetic Potential), so you have been able to add 10lbs to your WS (Workout Stress) every workout and your CSL (Current Strength Level) has increased enough each workout to accommodate that 10lb increase.

Suddenly you had a missed rep. The slope of you "linear progression" has flattened out. A workout near your CSL no longer produces a strength increase of 10lbs. If all other recovery factors are the same, then it is due to you getting closer to your Genetic Potential (GP).

So, recognizing this, in subsequent workouts you need to decrease the increments in your WS. Thus your question: Why not use 7.5lb increases instead of going all the way down to 5lb increases?

This is where some experienced coach input would be helpful!

Based on all of the reading I have done on this site, plus reading Rips books, my stab at the answer is that it has been the broad experience that the biggest part of linear progression during the novice phase for most people proceeds at 5lbs per workout. Initially, if you have a high GP and start with light weights, you can have a 10lb LP but soon you will fall down to a 5lb LP, and finally a 2.5lb LP. My impression is that if you try a 7.5lb LP it won't last too long and by dropping to the 5lb LP you will have a nice long period of solid LP.

[DPMuller]

I'm with Gene on this one. Randy, dropping your increase in half when stalling ensures a longer linear progression period. Plus, if you increase by 5lb/workout, that's 15lb/week... and there are 52 weeks in an year, so you won't be able to sustain 5lb for a very long time either. You'll get to your heavy lifting quickly enough - go with 5 and instead of being in a hurry to increase weights, focus on your FORM.

But again, I've been lifting for only 6 months... so take this with a grain of salt.

Might want to post a similar question in Andy Baker's Programming forum, too - he should be able to give you a more definite answer. Or ask Josiah Moye when you work with him next.

[osv2]

Okay here is the scenario:
Every thing going along fine and on the last set of squats he misses the last rep. S the obvious thing is to repeat it next time rather than raising the weight 10#. He has been making 10# jumps up until now. So the next workout he completes the full las set at the previous weight.

Now conventional wisdom, and the book I believe says to drop to 5# jumps rather than 10#. And from 5 to 2,5. Then go to micro loading.

Sorry, but as far as I remember, that's not what Rip suggests. Here there is no even stall, so nothing should change right now. And even when you get the first stall (number of reps with given weight is not increased in 3 workouts), you deload 10% and continue with original weight increase from there. You only change increment after 2--3 stalls and deloads (plus probably implement other changes in programming). That's the original as I remember it anyway.

Now, one could argue that it's a good idea to drop increments right now for older lifters. I'd wait for the first real stall anyway.

Finally, micro-decreasing of micro-loading is IMHO useless, so use 10,5,2.5,1,0.5 (or something else close to division by 2).

[Rherington]

This is what i based my scenario off of. it is from the SS#3 book. It is is the programming chapter, cant give you a page i have the kindle version.

For most male trainees with good technique, the squat can be increased 10 pounds per workout, assuming three workouts per week for two to three weeks. When you miss the last rep or two of your last work set, the easy gains are beginning to wane, and you can take 5-pound jumps for several months; back up 5 pounds and start with 5-pound jumps.

Rippetoe, Mark (2012-01-13). Starting Strength (Kindle Locations 7624-7627). The Aasgaard Company. Kindle Edition.

And i figured it was just a repeatable process. You miss on 5# jumps, do the same thing, back up 5 and go with 2.5# increases.

[osv2]

Probably my memory tells me what was there in PP... If SS:BBT3 says different, then it's better source as it's more recent.

Edit: ... yeah, now I see it, you are right, and I somehow missed it before.

[DPMuller]

And i figured it was just a repeatable process. You miss on 5# jumps, do the same thing, back up 5 and go with 2.5# increases.

Rip also points out that increases lower that 2.5lb for the squat are a waste of time as one can switch to intermediate programming (TM, etc.) and go up 5lb/week. So the whole "halve your weight increase and keep going up" stops making sense at a point (which varies based on the lift).

[Rherington]

Rip also points out that increases lower that 2.5lb for the squat are a waste of time as one can switch to intermediate programming (TM, etc.) and go up 5lb/week. So the whole "halve your weight increase and keep going up" stops making sense at a point (which varies based on the lift).

So do you think after you can't go on with the standard LP via jumps every workout you could just stick with the basic novice program and still make jumps but rather than every workout make it once a week? or every other workout? I really like the basic workout, it is short and to the point. I know i am not pushing that much weight yet but i really don;t look forward to extending workouts. I am not going to be a competitive lifter.

[kessg]

Rip also points out that increases lower that 2.5lb for the squat are a waste of time as one can switch to intermediate programming (TM, etc.) and go up 5lb/week. So the whole "halve your weight increase and keep going up" stops making sense at a point (which varies based on the lift).

I assume that applies to "target demographic" - males 18 to 35? I would still see value in increasing weights by smaller increments for those of us outside of this demographic.

[DPMuller]

I assume that applies to "target demographic" - males 18 to 35? I would still see value in increasing weights by smaller increments for those of us outside of this demographic.

Absolutely agreed - at the end of the day, we all have to decide what works best for us. For example, I'm not a dedicated lifter, so it's unlikely I'll ever go to TM. Most likely I'll slowly squeeze as much as I can out of the LP, then maintain my strength... or find a way to slowly improve while still allowing me to play soccer a couple of time a week (which TM would rule out).

And Randy - just figure out what works best for you. You should be able to go up by 5lb in squat for a while, as long as you leave enough time for recovery and sleep and eat well. By the time the LP ends, you'll have more lifting experience to rely on in making the decision on what the next step should be. Do read Practical Programming, too - it has quite a bit of detail on this.