Couple of rack pull questions...

[David_G]

So I was stuck at 445 as my RM5 on the DL for a few weeks, deloading didn't help so I started doing rack pulls on one heavy day and DL on the other.
On the bottom is my first rack pull vid, Rip stated that since I alternated my grip only 3 reps were legit, fair enough(hands were hurting from the grip, already got my straps now).

It seems that since my quads aren't involved the rack pull is WAY harder than the DL, I can manage 4 reps(barely as you'll see) on the rack pull with my RM5 DL.

I've been to a seminar led by Andi Bolton a few months ago, and he stated that if your rack pull is a lot stronger than your standard DL you are probably doing them incorrectly or too high.

But at the moment it would seem my rack pull is quite behind the DL, is this normal?
Does this mean my posterior chain is the weak spot? the hams?

Also should I start deadlifting/rack pulling in my Chucks? I got a 0.5 inch heel I believe on my lifting shoes does

Thanks for your time
Said video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIMWgZcX_nI

[Kenny Croxdale]

So I was stuck at 445 as my RM5 on the DL for a few weeks, deloading didn't help so I started doing rack pulls on one heavy day and DL on the other.
On the bottom is my first rack pull vid, Rip stated that since I alternated my grip only 3 reps were legit, fair enough(hands were hurting from the grip, already got my straps now).

4th Rep

Alternatering your grip on the third rep does't nullify you doing it. That make no sense.

You make the 4th rep!

Problem With 4th Rep

The problem with the 4th rep was that you allowed it to drift forward, anway from your body. Doing so, mean you increased the weight (force) of the bar.

Think of it this way. Which is easier, performing an upright row by keeping the bar close to your body or performing a front raise.

Obviously, the close you keep the bar to you "Center of Gravity" (COG) the less force you have to produce in getting the weigh tup.

Bad Tehnique

While the 4th rep builds "Character" one of the problems is it reinforced bad technique.

As Vince Lombardi said, "Practice does NOT make perfect. Perfect practice make perfect."

Thus, one thing to keep in mind is once your form falls apart, STOP the movement. Continuing only reinforces poor techinique.

It seems that since my quads aren't involved the rack pull is WAY harder than the DL, I can manage 4 reps(barely as you'll see) on the rack pull with my RM5 DL.

I've been to a seminar led by Andi Bolton a few months ago, and he stated that if your rack pull is a lot stronger than your standard DL you are probably doing them incorrectly or too high.

But at the moment it would seem my rack pull is quite behind the DL, is this normal?
Does this mean my posterior chain is the weak spot? the hams?

Where is your sticking point in the regular deadlift?

It hard to answer your quesition without knowing more.

Conventional Deadlift Sticking Point

Traditionally, the sticking point for Conventional Deadlifter is in the knee area. That is the "mud hole" where the bar slows down.

Now think of driving through your "Deadlift Mud hole" like driving your car though a mud hole.

You need to hit the mud hole with a running start. That running start provide you with momentum (power) which will help propel you through it.

Power = Strength X Speed

Olympic Pulls and Kettlebell Swings

The power you need to drive through that sticking point comes from the hips.

Olympic Pulls, especially Hang Power Cleans and Hang Power Snaches), are one of the most effective for increasing hip drive power.

Heavy Kettlebells Swings (100 lbs plus)
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...55-mcd02.hydra

Bret Contreras' has a brilliant article on this, listed above.

Kettlebell swings is movement that will increase your hip drive power.

You can make your own cheap effective "Kettlebell Swing- Adjustable-Hungarian Core Blaster" for about $20 plus weight plates.

Rack Pulls From The Knee

Again, traditionally the weak link in a conventional deadlift is the knee area.

When you pull the weight from the floor in a deadlift, you have some momentum going into the knee area. This momentum allows you to move the bar either past the sticking point or higher up before you fail.

When you place the bar in the rack in the knee area to perform Partial Rack Deadlifts, you start the pull at the weakest point with NO momentum.

That means you are sitting at a dead stop in the "mud hole". It is going to take even more strength to get out of the "mud hole"...there is NO momentum to help you.

That is why you cannot pull as much weight with Partial Rack Deadlifts from your weakest point.

Also should I start deadlifting/rack pulling in my Chucks? I got a 0.5 inch heel I believe on my lifting shoes does

Thanks for your time
Said video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIMWgZcX_nI

NO Heal Shoe

A shoe with NO heel is best for the deadlift.

The Torque On The Power Rack Pins

One more thing, you need to move the bar up on the pins so that it is closer to the rack.

You are dropping the weight on the furtherest part of the lever arm/pin. This magnifies the force place on that lever arm.

At some point the pins at the attachment part of the rack are going to break or bend.

Think of the pins like a tree branch. The branch is more stable when it is close to the trunk/base of the tree.

The further you climb out on the branch, the greater the torque and greater the change of the branch breaking with you on it.

Kenny Croxdale

[David_G]

Appreciate the amazingly detailed response:

- I will start treating my rack better and rack pull closer to the pins(even though it's massive it isn't unbreakable)

- Sticking points: I can always pull it up from the ground, I get stuck(usually 5th rep on a new 5RM try) on certain points up from the middle of the shin to the patellar tendon usually, the part you wrote about the mud hole and the momentum in a normal DL vs. a partial makes a lot of sense, and it also makes me think that this might be the best thing i've ever done in order to improve my DL- working directly on my sticking point/mud hole

- Maybe it isn't noticeable but I am trying to move the bar as fast as possible, since the weights are heavy it moves quite slowly.

- I just HAD to lockout that last rep, I usually don't bang my head against the wall, but I was raging that it got so damn hard on the 3rd rep... you know how it is

[Kenny Croxdale]

Appreciate the amazingly detailed response:

- Sticking points: I can always pull it up from the ground, I get stuck(usually 5th rep on a new 5RM try) on certain points up from the middle of the shin to the patellar tendon usually, the part you wrote about the mud hole and the momentum in a normal DL vs. a partial makes a lot of sense, and it also makes me think that this might be the best thing i've ever done in order to improve my DL- working directly on my sticking point/mud hole.

The Sticking Point

Strengthening the weak link in the chain will definitely help.

Just remember that the sticking point in a lift isn't where it stops.

Think of it like running out of gas in your car. Once you run out of gas, you car will coast further down the road unit it stops.

Where your car stops is not where it ran out of gas. It ran out of gas further up the road.

The same applies with your sticking point in a deadlift or any other movement.

Rack Training Solution

What you want to do is place the bar a little below where you "run out of gas" on your deadlift. Work it from that position.

- Maybe it isn't noticeable but I am trying to move the bar as fast as possible, since the weights are heavy it moves quite slowly.

Compensatory Acceleration

The objective should always be to push/pull the bar as hard and fast as you can. So, "trying to move the bar as fast as possible" is the right thing to do.

The reality is in Limit Strength movements (85% of your 1 Repetition Max or greater) there is virtually no speed or power.

Power = Strength X Speed

Power is the multiplcation of Strength X Speed.

Power is best developed with traditional strength movement like the deadlift, squat and bench press with loads of approximately 48-65% of your 1 Repetition Maximum.

Power Training Deadlift Example: 500 lb One Repetition Maximum

Deadlift Power Training needs to employ training loads of 240 lbs - 325 lbs to increase your power output development.

500 lbs X 48% = 240 lb

500 lbs X 65% = 325 lbs

The focus is on pulling the weight with as much power as you can. Somewhere between 240 lb -325 lb lies the "Sweet Spot" where each individual will find they produce the greatest power output, development.

Westside Barbell has misnamed these "Power Movement" as "Speed Training".

The REAL Power Movements

The poster childern for Power training are Olympic Lifters.

The Olympic Lifts are the REAL power training exercises and movements.

Research has demonstrated that few other sports produce as much power as Olympic Lifter.

Few exercise come close to developing power as Olympic Movements.

Power Output

Research shows that Olmypic movement power output is over four time greater than a "Power Deadift" ("Power Squat or Power Bench Press").

So, the take home message is if really want to increase you hip drive power in your deadlift, Olympic pulls are the most effective.

Kettlebells

Bret Contreras points out the benefits of Heavy Kettlebell Swings as an effective power training tool for deadlift training.

Heavy Kettlebell Swings provide a unique component, eccentric loading as a means of developing the stretch reflex.

Heavy Kettlebells Swings should be used at some point in your training.

However, Olympic pulls edge Heavy Kettlebell Swings out when it come to increasing your power in the deadlift.

Kenny Croxdale

[David_G]

Currently I can only mangae to squeeze in the powerclean, which is my explosive, low weight movement.
Last PR was VERY EASY maybe thanks to the rest my CNS had(DL every other week rather than every week) maybe it was a direct adaptation to the rack pull, but it was beautiful.

Once I get stuck i'll revise things and maybe start speed DL(faster than a PC actually on the pull) or some KL swings as you suggest.

[Kenny Croxdale]

Currently I can only mangae to squeeze in the powerclean, which is my explosive, low weight movement.
Last PR was VERY EASY maybe thanks to the rest my CNS had(DL every other week rather than every week) maybe it was a direct adaptation to the rack pull, but it was beautiful.

Overtraning The Lower Back

The lower back is quickly and easily overtrained. Intermediates and advance lifters do better with less frequent deadlift sessions, like every other week.

Once I get stuck i'll revise things and maybe start speed DL(faster than a PC actually on the pull) or some KL swings as you suggest.

Power Deadlifts

"Speed Deadlifts is a misnomer. Training load of 48-65% of your 1 Repetition Max are a power movement.

Calling it "Speed Deadlifts" is like calling a cat a dog. They are not the same animal.

Faster Than A PC?

There is an indirect relationship with the load (weight on the bar) of strength, power and speed.

As the weight increases there shift from speed to power and power to strength. That means...

1) Speed is produced with light loads.

2) Power is produced with moderate loads.

3) Strength is produced with heavy loads.

Thus, you are not going to pull a Power Clean faster than a Deadlift.

Watts Per Kilo of Body Weight

Research has demonstrated that Olympic Pulls produce over 4 time the amount of as a Deadlift.

1) Deadlift: 12 watts per kilo of body weight.

2) Clean: 34.3 watts per kilo of body weight.

3) Second Pull: 52.6 watts per kilo of body weight.

The data also "showed that even when dropping the training poundage down to lower percentages for Olympic pulls and deadlifts, outputs for Olympic pulls were still almost twice as great." http://www.liftinglarge.com/The-No-D...m_ep_51-1.html

Kenny Croxdale

[Kenny Croxdale]

David,

Here are some additional method of strengthing the upper part of your deadlift.

"Your only as stong as you weakest link."

The focus of both these method is on overloading your weak point as a means of increasing strength in that area.

Band Deadlifts

The Deadlift has an Ascending Strength Curve. That means that the higher you pull it the easier it becomes...once you get past the sticking point.

Conventional Deadlifts have a knee area sticking point.

Sumo Deadlifters sticking point is breaking it off the floor.

Attaching bands to the bar during Deadlifts allows you to overload the upper part of the movement.

1) Floor Bands Loading. Attaching band to the base of a power rack is one method of increasing the force (weight/load) as you pull the weight up.

2) Reverse Band Loading. This is a easier method that produces the same results. Anchor the bands to the top of power rack and then to the bar.

That decreases the load off the floor and then increases it the higher you pull it.

Touch and Go Deadlifts

This is an effective method for Conventional Deadlifters who have a strong pull off the floor, yet stall in the knee area.

The Touch and Go allows you to Deadlift more weight. That means you are able to overload the top part of the pull.

Secondly, Touch and Go Deadlifts develop some of the stretch reflex.

Stretch Reflex

The stretch reflex provide a "Sping Like" effect. When the connective tissue is stretch with the the right load, it spring back enabling you to produce more power.

Leg Pump Stretch Reflex

You see some Deadlifter pump their legs up and down prior to pulling the weight off the floor. This action elicits some of the stretch reflex.

Grip And Rip

You see a few Deadlifters, drop down quickly to the bar, grip and then pull. This elicits some of the stretch reflex.

Advocates of Touch And Go Deadlifts

1) Dr Fred Hatfield in Power: A Scientific Approach.

2) Charles Staley: "The Bounce Stiff Leg Deadlift". http://www.criticalbench.com/bouncing_stiff_legged_deadlift.htm

3) Ben Bruno: Paused Reps vs. "Touch-and-Go" on the Deadlift.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/8_more_random_thoughts_and_training_tips

Kenny Croxdale

[Kregna]

Kenny - you say there is virtually no power/speed produced in a 1rm deadlift, so how does better power generation (developed with the O-lifts and kettlebell swings) help it? I know rippetoe talks about this in his book but I want to hear your take on it

[Rob Waskis]

But at the moment it would seem my rack pull is quite behind the DL, is this normal?
Does this mean my posterior chain is the weak spot? the hams?

Nope. I believe it is common to hit your deadlift 1RM for 5 on the rack pull.

Also should I start deadlifting/rack pulling in my Chucks? I got a 0.5 inch heel I believe on my lifting shoes does

Personal preference. I love pulling in my OL shoes because I get a better hip angle and more quad. Probably won't make as much of a difference for the rack pull though.

Other notes:
Plenty of people get stuck mid-shin - it's probably the most common sticking point.
Do your cleans - they drive the deadlift.
Alternate rack pulls and haltings, not rack pulls and deadlifts. I know it seems like you should alternate with deadlifts to get twice as much work in your weakest area, but you could also run into recovery/fatigue problems.
How far under your knee is the bar? It seems kind of low, which would mean a lower rack pull weight.

[David_G]

Nope. I believe it is common to hit your deadlift 1RM for 5 on the rack pull.

Personal preference. I love pulling in my OL shoes because I get a better hip angle and more quad. Probably won't make as much of a difference for the rack pull though.

I advanced 7.5kg on my DL since I started to rack pull, the DL was easy as fuck also, I just hit a 450 for 5 and i felt as if I had 2 more reps in me.
So things obviously work atm and I see no reason to change the alternation, no need to fix something that works.
I am sincerely lifting 1 rep behind my 5RM DL in the rack pull, my 1RM DL is around 500-505, I tried to rack pull 500 last friday- couldn't move the damn bar.
As I said Andy Bolton said on his seminar- if you are lifting a lot more in the rack pull than the DL, your rack pull positioning is too high
But Andy pulls a 10 repper of what I wish to pull sometime in the future for a single, so just wanted to check with other guys who are doing the lift

Maybe the straps would help, I will try them as soon as they arrive

Other notes:
Plenty of people get stuck mid-shin - it's probably the most common sticking point.
Do your cleans - they drive the deadlift.
Alternate rack pulls and haltings, not rack pulls and deadlifts. I know it seems like you should alternate with deadlifts to get twice as much work in your weakest area, but you could also run into recovery/fatigue problems.
How far under your knee is the bar? It seems kind of low, which would mean a lower rack pull weight.

I lowered the bar as high as possible on the rack's position under the patellar tendon.
The upper hole is somewhere between my patellar tendon and the patella.
I prefer to do it too low(right at the sticking point) than higher.
Don't think it would even be comfortable to lift from that height