Replacing the power clean and snatch while fixing my back

[sunetdanne]

Hi,

I have issues with sciatica from trigger points in buttocks/low back and psoas. The chiro that I am currently seeing pointed out that this is due to tight quads and QL. NO MRI, do does not seem to be an herniated disc(yes I know one cant really tell without an MRI)

Why do my quads,psoas and QL get tight?

Simply because my form sucks in the power clean and snatch:

I do not finish the pull I let the bar "jump" at the middle of my tights and more over I "lift with my back before using my legs". My form is not super bad,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImpOCwdidjY

But bad enough to give me back troubles.

I have decided to drop the explosive movements for a while.

I need to point out that the day after clean/snatch my back feels worse. This is never the case after squats(I do high bar, I cannot do low bar due to tight shoulders and more over that the position of the bar fucks up my neck muscles and leaves me with neck pain and dizziness if not threated), bench, ohp or deadlift.


I also need to mention that I have anterior pelvic tilt. I am trying to work on this by ab work like planks, dead bug variations and reverse crunches + glute bridges with neutral pelvic position.

My question is quite simple what should I replace the explosive movements with (I do not do the Standard SS 3x5)


Here is my current programming routine:

M:
Wide stance squat:3x5(medium/light load)
Bench press 5x2(I am an altering between 5x5, 5x3 and 5x2)
Power clean/Power snatch 5x3/5x2 <-- Replaced with?

Wed:
One power clean followed by 5 OHP for 5 sets: <- skip PC just OHP add something
Sumo stance deadlift/conventional(alternating) 5x3


Fri:
Squat 5x2(alternating between 5x5, 5x3 and 5x2)
Alternating one arm db press/OHP 3x10/3-5x2-3
Inverse row:3-5xF

Stats needed?
180cm, 84kg BW:

Currently
OHP:5x5@65kg
Bench:5x2@100kg
Deadlift: 5x3@150kg
Squat:5x2@110kg(squat number = low, I had an deload on squats due to knee pain, this is fixed know(got myself real lifting shoes))

Best regards
Daniel

[Tom Campitelli]

This is a long post, but I will address a few things while leaving the rest for some of the others.

I have issues with sciatica from trigger points in buttocks/low back and psoas. The chiro that I am currently seeing pointed out that this is due to tight quads and QL. NO MRI, do does not seem to be an herniated disc(yes I know one cant really tell without an MRI)

Pain radiating down a leg is a classic symptom of disc involvement. Only one of your quadriceps, the rectus femoris crosses hip. The rectus femoris is a hip flexor, but it is not particularly strong in that function. While your quads may be tight, they are not likely to be the primary cause of your back pain. Note, I am not a doctor.

Why do my quads,psoas and QL get tight?

Probably because you are an active human being. Just about everyone that walks upright has back pain at some point and muscle tightness and soreness are part of any athletic endeavor. I would suggest that one of the big reasons your back hurts is because you hurt your back. The good news is that backs heal.

Simply because my form sucks in the power clean and snatch:

I do not finish the pull I let the bar "jump" at the middle of my tights and more over I "lift with my back before using my legs". My form is not super bad,

I realize that English is not your first language, so I am not trying to be overly snarky, but there is a contradiction above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImpOCwdidjY

But bad enough to give me back troubles.

I have decided to drop the explosive movements for a while.

The bar is swinging away from you as you pull. Rock back off your toes at the start and keep the bar in contact with your legs on the way up. Given that you have a back injury and jumping with a barbell in your hands is aggravating it, you may be wise to lay off of the Olympic lifts for a bit.

[Steve Hill]

Some comments, supplementary to what Tom has had to say:

1) Sciatica and other radiant pain in the lower extremities is a sign of impingement on a nerve (or nerves) that radiate through the intervertebral spaces. It is not just discs that can press on them, however, a ruptured / displaced / herniated / slipped disc can all cause this. There is only one way to diagnose this. Note that depending on the nature of the anatomical change, this may be a permanent condition.

2) I note that you are still deadlifting at a significant weight above your clean. How does your back feel after DL'ing.

3) Based on your video from your clean, the problem that I see here is that your set up is wrong. Post a video of your conventional deadlift.

4) Have you tried massage (and not the nice touchy-feely massage with hot rocks - I'm talking a hard, thorough, deep-tissue massage from an MT that works with athletes)?

5) Further on your PC: as an artifact of your set-up (and the bar, as Tom notes, swinging out to clear your knees, your entire explosion is up and back. Your landing is back as well. At the rack position, the bar is back over your heels with you leaned back. Not great for posterior spinal health.

6) Note:

I am trying to work on this by ab work like planks, dead bug variations and reverse crunches + glute bridges with neutral pelvic position.

I find that ab work makes bad backs stay bad, because almost all ab work causes some degree of spinal flexion, which irritates things.

[sunetdanne]

I realize that English is not your first language, so I am not trying to be overly snarky, but there is a contradiction above.

Yes you are correct, please point out the contradicton.


The bar is swinging away from you as you pull. Rock back off your toes at the start and keep the bar in contact with your legs on the way up.

I am not really following, rock back on my toes? How do you mean, do you mean that I am keeping the weight over my heels the whole time?

[sunetdanne]

Some comments, supplementary to what Tom has had to say:

1) Sciatica and other radiant pain in the lower extremities is a sign of impingement on a nerve (or nerves) that radiate through the intervertebral spaces. It is not just discs that can press on them, however, a ruptured / displaced / herniated / slipped disc can all cause this. There is only one way to diagnose this. Note that depending on the nature of the anatomical change, this may be a permanent condition.

2) I note that you are still deadlifting at a significant weight above your clean. How does your back feel after DL'ing.

3) Based on your video from your clean, the problem that I see here is that your set up is wrong. Post a video of your conventional deadlift.

4) Have you tried massage (and not the nice touchy-feely massage with hot rocks - I'm talking a hard, thorough, deep-tissue massage from an MT that works with athletes)?

5) Further on your PC: as an artifact of your set-up (and the bar, as Tom notes, swinging out to clear your knees, your entire explosion is up and back. Your landing is back as well. At the rack position, the bar is back over your heels with you leaned back. Not great for posterior spinal health.

6) Note:



I find that ab work makes bad backs stay bad, because almost all ab work causes some degree of spinal flexion, which irritates things.

1 I feel a lot of radiating pain when I press on trigger points on my left gluteus.

If this is disc related then, the damage of the disc would have taken place for like 8 months ago from a bad squat.

2 if I dont hyperextend my back and keep my abs tight I feel nothing at all.

3 I will post a video of an conventional DL ASAP.

4 yes I have tried trigger point work and acvupuncture and everything feels much better until I try to Claes/snatch again.

5 I do agree, I dont like my form at all.

6 so your suggestion would be no direct ab work, not even planks, only ab work from the lifts?

Thank you
Daniel

[dienster]

I had some issues for a while with psoas tightness leading to back pain. Nothing quite on your level but I truly believe that situps aggravated things. The psoas connects to your low back and can lead to hyper extension and back pain if it is tight. I really hit the stretching hard for a couple weeks and have been careful to stretch it out whenever I feel it is getting tight. A variation of the sampson stretch with my rear foot internally rotated helped me out a lot.

[Steve Hill]

1 I feel a lot of radiating pain when I press on trigger points on my left gluteus.

This information is so vague as to be useless. EVERYONE feels radiating pain when a "trigger point" is pressed on, because a trigger point is (generally) a nerve cluster. Which radiates out from that point. Not to mention being a totally different complaint than your original post.

If this is disc related then, the damage of the disc would have taken place for like 8 months ago from a bad squat.

You know this how?

2 if I dont hyperextend my back and keep my abs tight I feel nothing at all.

A hyperextension is an injury condition. You mean to use the word "overextend."

..and keep my abs tight I feel nothing at all.

So what does this say about what you aren't doing when you clean. I note, from your video, that you don't take much of a breath before you pull. Maybe your should try doing so, like when you DL.

3 I will post a video of an conventional DL ASAP.

4 yes I have tried trigger point work and acvupuncture and everything feels much better until I try to Claes/snatch again.

Trigger point and accupuncture are not deep tissue or myofascial release. You should find a therapist that knows both of these techniques and uses them - as well as trigger-point (which has very limited application).

5 I do agree, I dont like my form at all.

6 so your suggestion would be no direct ab work, not even planks, only ab work from the lifts?

If your abs are plenty strong enough to do DLs without pain, then they are plenty strong enough to to PCs without pain.

*IF* I have a trainee do ab work, I usually have him do work that does not cause spinal flexion, such as Captain's chair knee raises.

Have you tried decompression of the spine (like an inversion table or hanging by the arms)?

[Tom Campitelli]

Yes you are correct, please point out the contradicton.

Check the original reply. I bolded the problem.

The bar is swinging away from you as you pull. Rock back off your toes at the start and keep the bar in contact with your legs on the way up.

I am not really following, rock back on my toes? How do you mean, do you mean that I am keeping the weight over my heels the whole time?

I think we are encountering another language barrier here. I said "rock back off your toes" and then you said "rock back on your toes." Much different meanings. Try this - put your weight in your heels.

[sunetdanne]

Check the original reply. I bolded the problem.



I think we are encountering another language barrier here. I said "rock back off your toes" and then you said "rock back on your toes." Much different meanings. Try this - put your weight in your heels.

Ok, sorry i missed the bolded text, I understand.

About toes, think it was a grammar error from my side, however I get what you mean.

[sunetdanne]

This information is so vague as to be useless. EVERYONE feels radiating pain when a "trigger point" is pressed on, because a trigger point is (generally) a nerve cluster. Which radiates out from that point. Not to mention being a totally different complaint than your original post.



You know this how?


A hyperextension is an injury condition. You mean to use the word "overextend."



So what does this say about what you aren't doing when you clean. I note, from your video, that you don't take much of a breath before you pull. Maybe your should try doing so, like when you DL.



Trigger point and accupuncture are not deep tissue or myofascial release. You should find a therapist that knows both of these techniques and uses them - as well as trigger-point (which has very limited application).



If your abs are plenty strong enough to do DLs without pain, then they are plenty strong enough to to PCs without pain.

*IF* I have a trainee do ab work, I usually have him do work that does not cause spinal flexion, such as Captain's chair knee raises.

Have you tried decompression of the spine (like an inversion table or hanging by the arms)?

Steve, when I compare the left side and right side of my gluteus while doing trigger point work they dont feel the same at all.

The spots on the left side generates the same kind of pain and numbness that I feel on the outside of my left ankel an dunder my left toes, I do not have any pain, or ache between my hips and my low leg.

Tha pain,numbness on my left fot started after that I tweaked my back durin warmup squat 8 months ago. The numbness under the toes started for 3 months ago.

That I can deadlift bit not clean tells me that I am not using my Abs when "cleaning".

I am doing decompression every dag at work, using two high book shelfs as support. Loks almost like a dip, but my elbows are resting on the shelfs.

Here is a video of one DL set today, done at 90kg.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3AaNZRt63Vg