Rippetoe VS. Glassman

[Nelson Sprague]

Coach,

I am interested in your opinion of cross fit. While strength is one of the 10 components of fitness Coach Glassman talks about, it your primary focus. I understand how you can be of benefit to crossfit simply because of how educated you are on the human body. Its just there are several things you disagree with on cross fit such as kipping pull ups, bouncing weights during deadlifts, cleans, etc. and running 5ks. The zone/paleo diet(s) are a large part of crossfit, where as drinking a gallon of milk just doesn't fit into the zone diet. I am guessing it is simply a matter of what your overall goal is, but at the same time I can't help but look at the shirtless crossfit gurus and wonder if you lump them in with all the others you criticize for eating clean.

I thank you for your time and look forward to your response.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Nelson, you and a lot of people in CrossFit seem to be putting words into my mouth and misinterpreting many of the words that I put in my mouth.

First, kipping pull-ups and running 5ks are an important part of a program primarily devoted to general physical preparation. A strength program is not devoted to general physical preparation and so is conducted differently. No program should involve bouncing one's deadlifts or cleans off the floor.

Greg and I have talked about this at length, and he is aware of my opinion that strength is the most general of the ten physical attributes, because all of the others to some extent depend on strength or the process of its acquisition and strength depends on none of them.

As far as diet is concerned, let me go on record ONE MORE FUCKING TIME and say that a gallon a milk a day is recommended for people who are trying to gain weight. I have never said, nor will I ever say, that everybody should drink a gallon of milk a day. Were I to say something silly like that, everybody would be in correct in ignoring anything else I ever said after that point.

I have criticized no one for eating clean. I have criticized, and will continue to criticize, those people who fail to understand that an increase in muscular body weight would be very helpful to their met-con performance.

[McKirdyP]

I actually wrote out a very long message, but I am just not that human anymore... These two sentences are all that is left of that worrisome hand wringer.

God Bless you Mark, . Hope your shoulder is feeling better!

[Patrick]

I followed SS and other strength training programs for a few years and eventually tried CF for a couple of months. To me, the average CF participant is a little smarter, a little nicer, a little better prepared for oddball physical tasks, than someone who has trained strength but also a little weaker and less likely to quickly adapt to new things.

I'm left with this impression: I was 'decent' at CrossFit the first time I tried a workout because I was stronger for my weight than someone who had never squatted heavy loads. I got there by drinking a gallon of milk a day (up to the point that it started to make me fat). At the stage I am right now, I do consider sugar to be bad. When I was just beginning to put on mass, sugar was fine. I don't think I'd have gotten here 'cleanly'.

I think the biggest problem is this: wise advice is dispensed with a nuance that is often lost on the people who would benefit the most had they understood it. On one end of the spectrum you have people who apply every utterance literally without any sort of consideration. On the other end of the spectrum are the folks who would tweak each of ten principles if you handed them a training guide that fit on a notecard. The happy medium is the guy who gets what the hell it is a good program is trying to do and understands when and even why to apply the concepts -- even though he wouldn't have thought of it on his own.

GOMAD works for really skinny guys but it makes me fat. CrossFit is most beneficial for strong guys looking to increase all-around physical performance, but it won't make you as useful as a good strength program. Bodybuilding programs are still better for muscle and powerlifting programs are still better for mastering a small selection of really heavy lifts. Maybe I'm naive, but I say learn from them all and you won't train in vain (The Clash rocks).

PS - There is a question that I think ought to be discussed, and it's a big elephant in the room: CrossFit seems to make superstars out of people who are already strong or athletic, but for the mere mortals I hang with... will it make us stronger or faster or more muscular? I have my opinions, but the question is at least worth mulling over.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Thoughtful post, Patrick. But I'd have to say that a typical bodybuilding program is the best way to waste time in a gym that has ever been devised.

[Rich_S]

I'm curious what Rip thinks of the new Crossfit Strength Biased (CFSB) program that was published in the February Crossfit Journal and now seems to be all the rage over on the Crossfit Board.

Here's a brief summary:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day 1: Rest
Day 2: Back Squats + Metcon
Day 3: Deadlift + Metcon
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Long Metcon
Day 6: Front Squats + Metcon
Day 7: Shoulder Press + Metcon

It's set up in 6 week cycles. For the first 2 weeks you do 3 sets of 5, for the next 3 weeks you do 5 sets of 3, for the final week you do 5-3-3-1-1-1-1. On all weeks, ascending sets (ramping weights up) are used rather than sets across. Week 7 is generally taken as a rest week.

After the sets of 5 or 3, an additional 1 or more light high rep sets are done prior to the metcon for the day. On Deadlift and Press days this can be either one set of 15-20 or a multiset of 21-15-9 or 15-12-9 or 12-9-6 with one minute rest between each step of the multiset. On front squat day back squats are done for 1 set of 15-20. On back squat day, no additional sets are done.

Metcons on the lifting days are generally held to 10-20 minutes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems like a lot to me. Overtraining would be a concern. It also seems needlessly complex, particularly as it's targeted towards beginners.

[kfreeman]

I know a lot of mere mortals who get into CrossFit, after they do SS and become more than mere mortals...

I don't know too many untrained/normal people who "keep up" with the group of people who decide to start with SS before moving on. I know even fewer who adapt as quickly as those we hear of on Ripp's program.

I don't think it's a big elephant mostly because people who want to be STRONG end up here, people who want to be good at CF end up over there and the nerds who don't want to work at anything end up on BB.com (I suppose this is natural selection at work...)

[Resurrected]

Zone Diet: I have followed Dr. Sears Zone Diet for 14 years. I was morbidly obese as a child and lost 90 lbs on his plan. I am a big fan. However, the problem with the Zone in the traditional sense of the approach, it is hypo-caloric. 20 Zone blocks (common recommendation for active males), yields about 1800 Kcals daily. It is great for getting really lean, however I have had to add at least 1000 Kcals daily to gain muscle/recover from workouts. The concept of a low insulin response/moderate glucagon response works well for keeping blood sugars maintained/body fat low, and physical performance high for the most part. Again however, it is too low in the calorie department to gain muscle for most people.

Crossfit: Crossfit is probably the best overall GPP method out there I have tried yet. It has its limitations though. I followed it strictly for a year and got really fit, leaned out, and maintained my strength (never gained). The problem was, I wasn't nearly strong enough to have a great performance in most of the workouts to begin with. Went back to the drawing board to figure it out. IMHO, most would benefit by first obtaining some basic numbers. I have found with myself and most of my clients at least 2 X body weight deadlift, 1.5 X body weight front squat, and a body weight press should be some minimum standards before getting the most out of Crossfit. This doesn't mean that you can't get really good results from Crossfit as a begginer. It just seems you get THE MOST out of it if you are strong tobegin with. An example, lets say an individual can back squat 600 lbs. That person is going to be able to do a ton of body weight squats without getting as tired as someone of the same body weight who can only squat 300 lbs (theoretically).

The thing I think we forget is setting goals, then planning to obtain those goals. We forget SPECIFICALLY what we are after. If it is Strength, we better listen to Powerlifters because they seem do it better than any. If we are after an enormous, sculpted, however blown up, and disgusting, yet lean physique maybe we should see what pro bodybuilders are doing. They do it better than any I have seen.

Remember the 7 P'S Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I'm curious what Rip thinks of the new Crossfit Strength Biased (CFSB) program that was published in the February Crossfit Journal and now seems to be all the rage over on the Crossfit Board.

I think it addresses a problem in the program, perhaps not as well as some approaches, perhaps better than some others. But at least it has not gone unaddressed. The fact that it "rages" should tell you that most people see the problem for what it is.

[Rich_S]

I think it addresses a problem in the program, perhaps not as well as some approaches, perhaps better than some others. But at least it has not gone unaddressed. The fact that it "rages" should tell you that most people see the problem for what it is.

I take it that the problem you refer to is that of untrained people often not being strong enough to complete the Crossfit WOD.

I was more interested in hearing your thoughts on doing 5 metcons and 4 lifting sessions per week.