A new article about pulling mechanics

[Mark Rippetoe]

By our friend from Atlanta Steve Hill, and me. Dry, boring, informative. Have at us, all you intellectuals.

http://startingstrength.com/articles...l_rippetoe.pdf

[thebigdog]

Lots of interesting stuff here. However, I have to take exception to a thing or two. First of all, most lifters, like Dimas, who pre-shrug the shoulders or pull with slightly bent arms or "cocked" shoulders do so to put the bar in a higher position on the hip when the explosive "jump" or second pull happens... which by the way happens when the bar is at the hip or very near it, not at the knee as is claimed in the article. This shrug has nothing to do with anything that happens between the knees and hip, its to make what happens at the hip more powerful.

Second, Rip keeps insisting that modern technique has the knees staying forward and the bar moving around them, and has the shoulders behind the bar. Both of these things are in fact, the EXACT OPPOSITE of "current dogma".

Rip obviously knows his physics, but I think he should talk to a weightlifting coach before he writes his next weightlifting article.

[Ello]

Great article that reminds me the need to emphasize a vertical bar path for not only those that I coach, but for myself as well.

[ZenGeek]

Makes sense.

I'm an engineer and I still had to read the applications to understand the theory.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Two points raised in that article head dead between the running lights.

First the example on page 2 comparing holding out 5 lbs. at arm's length to 500 lbs. is almost identical to an example I use all the time in teaching jujitsu. Too often, the learner wants to extend their arm too far out from their own body when trying to free themselves from someone grabbing them. I tell them to keep the elbow(s) bent and in close to the body or their leverages get bad and they are relatively weaker. I use a 40 lb. dumbell as the example. As in, "Think of doing an overhead press with a 40 lb. dumbell, now try to do a lateral raise with the same dumbbell. That second move might be pretty hard, huh?"

The rotating on one's own axis of center mass discussed on pages 3-4 can be done in full gravity, you just have to some Japanese on the human body as opposed to English to git 'er to spin. Two examples from mushin ryu. Someone throws a right roundhouse, you block it with your left and grab the adam's apple with thumb on one side and the other four fingers on the other. Make a small inward rotation (or pronation) counterclockwise of the right wrist and the bad guy spins counterclockwise on his vertical axis. He ends up facing the opposite direction and not able to attack or defend himself easily. Pulling with the arm alone won't make this happen. The second causes a rotation along the horizontal axis at about the waist or navel. Someone tries to walk past you on your right where they are not supposed to go. You side step to the left and bring your left hand behind the neck and push forward and down with the right hand at their navel pushing backward and slightly down. When they begin to resist, the right hand comes up to clothesline them at the clavicle, and the left down to the lower back and forward. Their head and feet swap places and they actually go slightly airborne about 2-3 feet above the ground. They rotate on their center axis. It's interesting to me how much the physics of exerting and applying strength have in this art of a lot of small intricate movements of your own body to cause the manipulation and collapse of someone else's body.

[Matt Reynolds]

Very good article guys. I reread both chapters on the deadlift in Strong Enough? last week. This is a perfect companion article. I am competing in a meet in 10 days (should deadlift 700+ raw), but afterwards I fully plan on taking some time to retweak my pulling form in order to make it more efficient based on Rip's explanation of how the movement is most effectively performed from a biomechanical position.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Lots of interesting stuff here. However, I have to take exception to a thing or two. First of all, most lifters, like Dimas, who pre-shrug the shoulders or pull with slightly bent arms or "cocked" shoulders do so to put the bar in a higher position on the hip when the explosive "jump" or second pull happens... which by the way happens when the bar is at the hip or very near it, not at the knee as is claimed in the article. This shrug has nothing to do with anything that happens between the knees and hip, its to make what happens at the hip more powerful.

We agree. I think we made that point clear that the purpose is to lengthen the lever arm so that the whip through the second pull can take place more efficiently. The acceleration starts as the bar clears the knees. This is easy for anyone to verify with youtube, keepvid.com, and a quickTime player.

Second, Rip keeps insisting that modern technique has the knees staying forward and the bar moving around them, and has the shoulders behind the bar. Both of these things are in fact, the EXACT OPPOSITE of "current dogma".

You mis-state my position, apparently intentionally, because a smart guy like you should know better. No one pulls the bar out around the knees, because you can't do it with anything heavy. It might occur with inefficient lifters -- the ones you no doubt coach -- in the snatch, but with heavy weights the bar comes back into balance over the mid-foot. You have not read the article carefully, or anything else I've written about this if you actually think this is what we said here. The current dogma, in fact, has the bar leaving the ground from over the toes and the front of the shoulders vertical to the bar, which produces a bar path with horizontal components. I have taught both USAW Club Coach and Sports Performance Coach courses, I can actually read the current coaching material, and I know what the current received wisdom is, and any honest observer will agree.

Rip obviously knows his physics,

Rip doesn't know his physics. Steve knows his physics.

but I think he should talk to a weightlifting coach before he writes his next weightlifting article.

Do you know one in my area? Maybe the LWC president here in North Texas can suggest someone, huh? After all, most of my limited experience has been spent setting pins in fucking Nautilus machines and counting reps for 50-year-old women.

A suggestion: why don't you sign your comments with your actual name, so that we can all be in a position to evaluate YOUR credentials? You don't seem to have any problem with calling mine into question.

[Steve Hill]

which by the way happens when the bar is at the hip or very near it, not at the knee as is claimed in the article.

You can disagree all you like, but if you go through videos of Dimas' lifts (and G-d knows, I've looked at about 50+ hours of video over the last 4 months writing this article), you will see that the shrug happens as the bar is approaching the knee. I am not at my home computer, so it will have to wait, but I'll be happy to post pictures, and then you can believe me AND your lyin' eyes.

UPDATE: Here we are.

This shrug has nothing to do with anything that happens between the knees and hip, its to make what happens at the hip more powerful.

Conjecture. I strongly disagree. I put the "why" in the article. Perhaps you could write one and explain your thinking.

Second, Rip keeps insisting that modern technique has the knees staying forward and the bar moving around them, and has the shoulders behind the bar. Both of these things are in fact, the EXACT OPPOSITE of "current dogma".

Wow, I've seen several instructional videos that state exactly that. "S"-shaped curve ring a bell? With respect to the dogma that we did point out, that is not the impression that I get. I talked to (or watched their videos of their coaching technique) of several other coaches who are teaching O-Lifts, and with the exception of one coach (who taught me to o-lift back in the 80's, BTW, here in ATL - I'll let you guess who), this seems to be, again, in MY impression, the current prevailing "wisdom."

But to be honest, whether it is or isn't is irrelevant, and is only a minor point of the article.

Rip obviously knows his physics, but I think he should talk to a weightlifting coach before he writes his next weightlifting article.

If there are any errors or inadequacies in the article due to not talking to a weightlifting coach, it's mine and not Rip's. But see my point above as to why I don't think there are. In any event, I did talk to weightlifting coaches. I was providing my impression. Rip seems to agree with me. We put our names on the article. I can live with that.

[thebigdog]

Here is the thing. Unless I have badly mis-read the article, you and Rip are saying that the early shrug is to make the lever of the back longer... longer so as to more effeciently accellerate the bar from the knees up. In talking directly to Dimas (through another Greek who spoke better english) and to his old coach iovonko (sp?) both of them believe that although no one taught him to do this, the advantage that it gives is to get the bar higher and further back towards him and thus make his second pull or explosive phase (which starts at the hip) stronger and more explosive.

Now, I do not think that either you or Rip set out to decieve anyone, I simply believe that you got it wrong in this case.

And about modern technique... right in the level 1 text it says that at the start the shoulders should be in front of the bar. It is widespread, so universally believed as to be almost beyond discussion, that the knees move back out of the way of the bar as the bar is pulled up...

And finally... I think the continued insisting that the "acceleration" or second pull, or jump, or whatever you call it, starts at or near the knees, or anywhere much lower than the hip is crazy given the very easily verified case that the bar stops accelerating, and even often slows, as it comes up the thigh and the second knee bend occurs... setting the lifter up to "explode" from the hip.

Again, I don't think you are setting out to decieve, I just think that some things in the article are simply wrong.


And by the way, the "S" curve has the bar coming towards the lifter (usually very slightly) when it comes off the floor, then moving out as the explosion at the hip happens... this is exactly the opposite of the bar moving out and around the knees.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Here is the thing. Unless I have badly mis-read the article, you and Rip are saying that the early shrug is to make the lever of the back longer... longer so as to more effeciently accellerate the bar from the knees up. In talking directly to Dimas (through another Greek who spoke better english) and to his old coach iovonko (sp?) both of them believe that although no one taught him to do this, the advantage that it gives is to get the bar higher and further back towards him and thus make his second pull or explosive phase (which starts at the hip) stronger and more explosive.

We disagree, you silly old name-dropper. I know another guy who does this all the time. Has many personal problems, quite bright, but a miserable bastard of a human being.

Now, I do not think that either you or Rip set out to decieve anyone, I simply believe that you got it wrong in this case.

That's damned gracious of you. But this Dimas shrug-thing is not the point of the article at all. A bright guy like you should see this.

And about modern technique... right in the level 1 text it says that at the start the shoulders should be in front of the bar. It is widespread, so universally believed as to be almost beyond discussion, that the knees move back out of the way of the bar as the bar is pulled up...

And we are saying that the bar should come off the floor in a straight vertical line and stay that way as much as possible, not pulled back or thrown forward AT ALL, with the lifter's technique designed to make this occur. You have not addressed this critical point, but have merely made some observations.

And finally... I think the continued insisting that the "acceleration" or second pull, or jump, or whatever you call it, starts at or near the knees, or anywhere much lower than the hip is crazy given the very easily verified case that the bar stops accelerating, and even often slows, as it comes up the thigh and the second knee bend occurs... setting the lifter up to "explode" from the hip.

The acceleration starts as the bar comes off the floor. At least it should. It peaks at the second pull because of what you do before it gets there. Everyone knows that the inefficiency with which force is transferred to the bar as the knees shift forward for the second knee extension slows down this acceleration in the middle of the pull, but it's obviously not by design, and not everybody slows down the same degree. We have both seen the same data, in the same room in fact. Our point is that a vertical bar path is the mechanical ideal, that the lifter's motion should facilitate this to the greatest extent possible, that designing a pull to be other than a vertical line is inefficient, that the conventional coaching of Olympic weightlifting usually does this, that historical observation is not the same thing as analysis, that elite athletes are often very very good at doing things inefficiently, and that just because an strong lifter can manage the inefficiency doesn't mean he would not be better if he were more efficient.

Now, please go away and post on another board.