How many very explosive athletes play in the NFL at 220? At 250? Are your epeeists faster than they are?
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Size vs Speed
Hey Rip, I’ll post this here and hope to not get mocked too relentlessly for this. Actually let me add a disclaimer first, I love the SS program and it’s done me a lot of good and will continue to do so as I give it more time and focus. Now onto my question.
When setting my goals I’ve brought up the weight of Olympic fencers a few times in the forum to which people tell me I should ignore it and still aim for 200-220 lbs etc. But take a look (if you can) to the two finalist this year in the Mens Epee event: FE M E Individual Rio BRA Olympic Games 2016 Final podium PARK KOR vs IMRE HUN - YouTube
These guys are freaking fast and both weigh 160-165 lbs (admittedly one of them is on the shorter side, and the other is 41 years old…). But when I looked at the 2012 Olympics I found Epeeists my height (6’1) averaged at around 176 lbs.
So we know stronger muscles = faster muscles and that power is needed for acceleration, but it just seems a lighter body weight tends to help most fencers keep moving ‘on the bounce’ and reacting faster. So what is it, are all fencers 30-40 lbs away from being world champions or is 80 KG with a 10% body fat the way to go?
Cheers
TMPHBITEU
How many very explosive athletes play in the NFL at 220? At 250? Are your epeeists faster than they are?
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This is pretty interesting, actually.
I don't really have much of anything to add, I'm just wondering how being significantly stronger than the other guy plays out, all else being equal. And does that work the same across weapons?
The sabre is rather a different animal, I gather.
I mean fencing isn't chess, but it certainly isn't rugby either.
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I don’t watch NFL but I guess it’s hard to say who’s fastest as the sports are so different. I very much doubt any NFL players could move up and down a piste like a fencer, or lunge and fleche fast as them. I’m sure a most fencers doing American Football would take a heavy hit and sit out the rest of the match. I do know a fencer who is 220 lbs (Yannick Borel) but he is 6’5. Very fast, but not as much as the 160 lb park.Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe
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Wouldn't that depend on the context of the speed? Straight up sprinting seems to me to be a very different thing than for instance dancing, boxing or fencing which rely on quickly and "agily" moving around in any direction at a moments notice.
My personal intuition is that if you only care about the speed aspect of power, but not the force, like if we look at a point-based martial art vs. a full contact version, then you get quicker diminishing returns from strength training in the former than the latter.
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I fenced for 6 years in my twenties, and after finding SS I think what's been said of other sports applies just as well. All things been equal, I believe the stronger fencer would win, specially in a tournament where you've been fencing all day. Having less strength (i.e.: me) meant your shoulder and hand are totally fried by the final bout, and your legs can't get you out of a lunge anymore. Another benefit of strength training I see for fencers is the prevention of the asymmetric development you get due to the one-sided nature of the sport.
I did know a couple of fencers that would purposefully would stay as thin as possible. We fenced foil and their technique was to stand completely sideways and literally hide their torso behind their arm (hitting the arm is not valid in foil).
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A lot of speed like this is going to be efficiency of motion and a lot is going to be genetics, but there is no reason to think that the guy with the higher strength to bodyweight ratio isn't going to be faster compared to a lighter version of himself with less strength for that.
TMPHBITEU
Right. Fencers are entirely unique in their foot and hand speed. Why, no other sport in the world is as demanding of explosive speed. Not one. But even give that, ponder the endurance implications, as mentioned by ravl.
This article appeared many years ago in the SCJ: http://wfac-gym.com/files/Strength_a...or_Fencing.pdf
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Are fencers even considered athletes? From the outside looking in, it just seems like an effeminate version of horseplay performed in beekeeper costumes.
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Can you not imagine that the majority of this is about skill development?
There is also going to be a huge variation between a lineman who wants a certain degree of bulk regardless of it lowering the multiple of times his squat is above his bodyweight and a wide receiver or safety, who are much more concerned about carrying around extra weight beyond a certain point.
My wife watches 'Dancing With The Stars' and they have had at least two NFL guys that I can recall.
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