Stretch reflex \ Dead stop, what's better and how it was decided which one to use?

[TalEphrat]

Hello Rip,
The new Press video made me interested on this topic. One of the differences between the 2nd edition press to the 3rd, is the fact that now every rep starts at the bottom.
Also, you mention that the deadlift has a great quality since it starts at the most difficult part of the movement, which is a dead stop. It's mentioned at the book also about the Pull ups / Chin ups, that the "golden rep" starts from a dead stop.

So my questions are:
1. In general, what's better for strength gains, movements that start at the top and uses the strech reflex to bounce up from the bottom, or movements that starts from a dead stop? and is it varies between different movements?

2. If the answer to 1 is a dead stop (which maybe made you change the Press a bit), why don't we start also the Bench press and the Squat from a dead stop at the bottom?
All I could think about is the logistical problem, and the fact that there's nothing ideal to "rely on" at the bottom at the Squat and Bench press. But I'm not sure theese are the reasons.


Thank you very much for the answers,

Tal

[Mark Rippetoe]

1. Both are necessary for strength training. The squat probably works as well as it does for gaining strength and bodyweight because it incorporates the stretch reflex, and the deadlift is as hard as it is because it doesn't. The traditional way to squat has the bar walked out of the rack, so an eccentric/concentric order is natural given the typical equipment with which the squat evolved. If you want to start a squat with the concentric at the bottom, you must use boxes or a power rack, although you wouldn't need as many plates because this cuts your squat weight almost in half. The deadlift is obviously dependent on the floor, which is usually available. One is not better than the other -- they are merely different exercises that the barbell made possible.

2. BBT3 discusses the variations you mention as assistance exercises in the power rack. They are valuable, but they will never replace the parent movement. As for our interpretation of the press, with all reps of the set done from the bottom position start, we recommend it this way because it satisfies the criteria we have established for exercise efficiency, discussed here: http://startingstrength.com/resource...190#post544190

[steven-miller]

The way I see it:

Strict press: All the work done by upper-body. Less muscle mass involved. Less weight to be used. Harder to progress.

Push-press: Legs do a huge amount of the work. Big loads can get handled. Over-emphasizes lock-out strength of the arms, making it have a training effect closer to a partial movement regarding general upper-body strength. Great assistance exercise for weightlifters.

Press 2.0: Compromise between the two. More muscle mass and larger weight than the strict press, but with a much smaller degree of active lower-body involvement compared to the push-press. Very balanced exercise leaving the hardest part of the strict press largely intact but allowing for better training of lock-out strength. Also involves and trains the stabilizing muscles to a larger degree.

I think the "new" press lends itself very well to the purpose of general strength training.

[Mac Ward]

1. In general, what's better for strength gains, movements that start at the top and uses the strech reflex to bounce up from the bottom, or movements that starts from a dead stop? and is it varies between different movements?

2. If the answer to 1 is a dead stop (which maybe made you change the Press a bit), why don't we start also the Bench press and the Squat from a dead stop at the bottom?
All I could think about is the logistical problem, and the fact that there's nothing ideal to "rely on" at the bottom at the Squat and Bench press. But I'm not sure theese are the reasons.

If you read the link, you understand the four reasons we do our movements, I would add that somehow trying to do Deads from anything other than a dead stop is logistically difficult as we then need to take the bar out of the rack from the hang position and back up with it. This would be quite arduous with 500lbs. Additionally, bouncing our deadlifts does not make us stronger as 500,000,000+ CrossFitters have unequivocally proven. The bench and the dead are contested lifts, performing these lifts as they are performed in a meet prepares us quite nicely and keeps us within the standards of strength training that have suited very strong people for years. The minor difference being that in a meet we are required to momentarily pause the bench to show proper range of motion and control. This is easily learned a few weeks out, with not special adaptation required.

[TalEphrat]

Thank you very much for the replies. Made it much clearer to me =]

[johnnys]

Side question - I'm stuck doing seated presses for a while and have been using the SS 2nd Ed stretch reflex/breath at top option. Any way to work more muscle mass into the seated exercise?

[Mark Rippetoe]

No. Seated presses are not used in the program for this reason.

[Dan3088]

What would be a better alternative to the seated press if the trainee had to press seated due to injury or a low ceiling in my case?

[Mark Rippetoe]

The bench press.

[Trewarin]

Dan, what sort of injury would cause someone to have to be seated for a portion of training the press? mild amputation or something?

on the ceiling issue, go outside with the damn barbell... even taking it down to the park won't be too difficult, as you probably don't press a whole lot of weight.