Ask Rip #34, DE deadlift vs clean vs high-pull

[Tiedemies]

They are pulled differently because they do not rack, you know you're not going to rack them, so the timing is different and the commitment to the finish is not there. High pulls to a stick are not racked either.

I do not disagree at all. But as per power production, high pulls to a stick can and should in fact be able to produce *more* power than cleans an snatches, resp.

I agree fully that heavy high pulls make little sense for olympic lifters but the argument for using them to train for generalized power is the same as for cleans/snatches. Because racking / catching the bar is a *skill*, then these movements can be done with less skill and/or by people with limitations due to shoulder mobility, for example.

The argument Rip repeatedly makes about strength training is that skill is a different from strength. Racking a clean displays power and skill, being able to pull it high enough to hit the stick displays less skill but an equivalent amount of power. Hence by this argument it should *better* quantify the power production component.

Now this argument may have a flaw. But it's not quantifiability because either you pull the bar high enough or not. It is not power production because mechanically, you can't do it slowly. The argument that it messes your clean technique is correct but circular unless you're an olympic lifter.

So what is it? I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm honestly curious.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Have you done them both? Personally? Both snatches and snatch high pulls/cleans and clean high pulls? With how much weight?

[Tiedemies]

Have you done them both? Personally? Both snatches and snatch high pulls/cleans and clean high pulls? With how much weight?

Yes I have. I can't rack more than 75kg in clean, but I can pull about 100kg to about the level where I would rack a power clean. The technique for the second pull is different and it starts to go "bad", I.e., the mechanics are such that even though the bar goes about as high as a rackable clean, I could not rack it. I tried these this weekend in an olympic lifting camp under coaching.

My olympic wl coach said I shouldn't use that much weight in the high pull because it messes my technique, and I do agree. It was just that, I had the feeling that I could use more power when I don't worry about racking. This is what got me wondering what is the reason one wouldn't use them for training power. I understand the messing up the mechanics- argument but not the quantifiability argument.

Commitment to hit the stick is needed in the high pull to a stick. I could indeed understand the argument that because the timing is different there may in fact be less power produced, but no one made this argument particularly.

Look, I'm not trying to argue for the high pull per se. I'm not trying to say you all are wrong in doing the clean as opposed to the high pull. Your experience etc tells you this is so. Fine, but the argument is not there explicitly. Does the high pull produce less power for equivalent weight? Is the final strech to hit the stick done by cheating, I.e., with an arm
pull? Is the exercise just too silly to look at? Does the fact that you need the stick to hit, make it a less useful exercise because you need equipment other than the barbell?

When you clean, the line between PC and a squat clean is blurry. You can set a certain limit to it, but the fuzzyness is there. So the height and therefore energy may vary. Hitting the stick puts an objective, non-cheatable limit to the amount of energy. Not power, because it doesn't impose a limit for time. So there is this difference.

I understand you don't like them. I believe and will obey because you and my oly coach both say so. But I'd still like to understand. Call me silly.

[Mark Rippetoe]

If you are an Olympic lifter, the high pull is inferior because it is not practice, and because it is not that much heavier than the clean, so it does not increase force production off the floor as a deadlift can. If you are not an Olympic lifter, why would you need an exercise other than power cleans?

[Tiedemies]

If you are an Olympic lifter, the high pull is inferior because it is not practice, and because it is not that much heavier than the clean, so it does not increase force production off the floor as a deadlift can. If you are not an Olympic lifter, why would you need an exercise other than power cleans?

One reason I feel you might need it is, if you have rigid shoulders and flexibility issues that prevent a proper racking of a clean. For example, even with a technically flawless pull, I tend to catch it with my elbows too much down; I learned to compensate for this by going slightly deeper which gives me time to adjust to a proper rack. But this adjustement and compensation is a *skill* I acquired because I needed it due to my shoulders. So, I guess the take-home message is that a) the clean is something that an olympic lifter needs so they should not risk messing the technique with high-pulls, and b) the amount of extra weight you can handle in high-pull is insignificant compared with the versatility of the clean, so that everyone who can, should in fact clean and not high pull.

I believe this, and will not contest this. As to the special populations that cannot effectively rack the clean, say, because of anthropometry or bad shoulders, the high pull may be useful, but perhaps one should first consult a proper coach to see if the problem is something that can be fixed. If not, a coach who knows their stuff will be able to tell if the high pull is the best you can do.

My original question was, if you look at it, basically that in the event that something prevents the racking, would a high pull be more useful than DE deadlift. I still think that this is so, because, though worse than a clean, the power component of a high pull is still more quantifiable than a DE deadlift, if you pull to a stick and the stick is high enough.

[MWittmer]

Tiedemies, I realize you're asking Rip, so please excuse the intrusion and consider the following:

There is very little correlation between the lifts and pulls. I know weightlifters that can get under a bar pulled to 3-4 inches below their belt in the clean, and others that struggle getting under a bar pulled four inches above the belt. There is much more to the clean than simply pulling the bar to a prescribed height. It's fine that you use a stick as a measure in the pull, but I can say from much personal experience that hitting the stick with a PR weight does not carryover to a PR in the snatch or clean.

The fact that you are cleaning 75kg tells me you are a novice. Beginning lifters usually have much more strength than their lifts would indicate. Also, if your pulls have any amount of reasonable height and speed with 133% of your clean, then that tells me you have technique issues. For you, I believe pulls are a waste of time. I realize some lifters never do pulls, but that is for another discussion.

Most weightlifters that utilize pulls in their training use weights around 110% of the lifts, certainly no more than 120%. By definition, the pull is different from the actual lift, but when the weight gets that much past what you can snatch or clean, those differences are increased or magnified. Consider an elite lifter who can clean 205kg. Could you see that individual doing pulls with 272kg? I cannot. I could see a dead lift, or a "clean" dead lift, but not a pull.

One more comment, when you do correct whatever technique problem you have, you'll see your lifts take a big jump. I have seen guys jump 10kg literally overnight with a simple technique correction. This is especially true for beginners. Good luck.

[Jeff Power]

Maybe because you want to train for more expression of power but you can't rack to power clean due to and old broken wrist injury that doesn't let it bend backwards?

[Mark Rippetoe]

My original question was, if you look at it, basically that in the event that something prevents the racking, would a high pull be more useful than DE deadlift. I still think that this is so, because, though worse than a clean, the power component of a high pull is still more quantifiable than a DE deadlift, if you pull to a stick and the stick is high enough.

Yes, this is true. But I think this overstates the value of explosive barbell exercise when the majority of people will improve power by merely getting stronger. The way you train for "more expression of power" is to understand that getting stronger does this much more effectively for most people than practicing for an explosive component that most people cannot develop much anyway.

Most weightlifters that utilize pulls in their training use weights around 110% of the lifts, certainly no more than 120%. By definition, the pull is different from the actual lift, but when the weight gets that much past what you can snatch or clean, those differences are increased or magnified. Consider an elite lifter who can clean 205kg. Could you see that individual doing pulls with 272kg? I cannot. I could see a dead lift, or a "clean" dead lift, but not a pull.

Absolutely. As I mentioned earlier, the clean and the clean pull are different, due to the process going on in your head before you pull it. But also, the mechanical problems of a 100% clean and that of a 125%-of-clean high pull are different, when you consider the lifter/barbell system as a center-of-mass calculation. The mechanics of the two pulls are sufficiently different, since the lifter's mass does not change as the mass of the bar goes up and the COM of the system is in flux all the way up the warmup weights, that one does not constitute practice for the other. You may have noticed that an 80% snatch and a 95% snatch are quite different things, over and above the fact that one is heavier -- the timing and angles are different too, and as a result you have to actually pull 95%/98%/99% to learn how to do it. This explains why Abadjiev had such good success with the use of nothing but heavy snatches, heavy clean & jerks, heavy squats, and heavy front squats. For the demographic he worked with, this constituted both training and practice. High pulls would be anti-practice in this context. It also explains why Olympic weightlifting programs predicated on the use of 70% weights on assistance exercises have failed to produce positive results for anybody except the janitors at the USOTC -- and even that stopped working.

[Tiedemies]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the answers. I'm definitely at novice-level in the clean, because I have and always had problems with racking. That's why I took the coaching for olympic lifts.

My pull at 95kg was still ok technique-wise according to the coach that looked at my cleans. Above that it goes to shit; it is definitely more than 110% of my clean. And yes, the problem is technique in the racking, namely, the catching. That's what I'm working on right now.

In the days when my shoulder was worse, I couldn't rack a third of what I could deadlift. It's getting better. One more thing I have Rip to thank for. Eating more and gaining weight really boosted my rehab.

[MWittmer]

you have to actually pull 95%/98%/99% to learn how to do it. This explains why Abadjiev had such good success with the use of nothing but heavy snatches, heavy clean & jerks, heavy squats, and heavy front squats. For the demographic he worked with, this constituted both training and practice. High pulls would be anti-practice in this context. It also explains why Olympic weightlifting programs predicated on the use of 70% weights on assistance exercises have failed to produce positive results for anybody except the janitors at the USOTC -- and even that stopped working.

Geez Mark, you had to bring up the OTC and give me heartburn? What you say above, it really is that simple, isn't it? Why do we have to make it so damn difficult? But you were a powerlifter, so what could you know? Prior to finishing high school and leaving for the OTC, my son was doing 95-100% in each lift three times a week (the neighbors were not happy), and doing back squats to a limit single twice a week and front squats once a week, also to a limit. I understand that those are the years when you can really cook and if training properly, gains will be huge. Still, I figured sending him there to train with some of the top lifters in the country and presumably with coaches who could take him to the next level would be a good idea.

Then he is doing squats like this: 80%x6, 85%x4, 80%x6, 85%x4, 80%x6, 85%x4, 80%x6, 85%x4

That is forty reps with 80-85% weights, and...............he is not getting stronger, now we are exercising, and..........................now his knees are killing him.

Then he goes from working up to openers or more 20-25 times prior to a meet to..................once. Shocking, but in almost a year, his lifts went........nowhere.

OK, I am finished, going to find someone with a beta blocker. Then I'll call Steve Gough.